Anyone experienced with either Azimuth or Dolphin; advice appreciated

[Life-Is-Good-Diver]

An easy bet to win.
But now that you elaborated a bit more on your diving I think you should give the SportKiss a consideration, or better yet an intro if it's available in your area.

The gas addition is not unlike active-addition SCRs you asked about. An orifieced valve bleeds O2 into the loop continiously. The SCRs inject considerably more gas than you need (most of the time, anyway, they can be "overbreathed") and then dump some of it every fourth breath or so. Hence semi-closed. That means loop volume is always quite full, the units have a lot of positive bouyancy. Hence either a lot of lead (Dräger) or a very heavy rig (Azi) to counter.

The SportKiss injects O2 just below your normal metabolic rate, and is periodically topped off with the manual addition button on the valve. You (ideally) dive at minimal loop volume (just about enough for one really deep breath, takes a bit of prcatise), which translates into less bouyancy. On the SportKiss you have the option of a steel or alu case, the former great for cold water diving with plenty of negative bouyancy, the latter great for travelling. You can fit the entire rig into a carry-on backpack when the tanks are off. You can easily use different size tanks, either 2 ltr or 3 ltr one will work on the alu housing, the steel can take a bit larger.

With the Dräger you're limited by the valves which must fit the tank (propriatory) and with the Azi by the case since the tanks are inside.

I would not dive either active-addition SCR without O2 monitor, so there isn't that much difference in that respect for between SCR and CCR. Other than the O2 monitor the KISSes don't have electronics, so any worries about those don't apply.

The SportKiss is trimix capable and factory rated to 150 fsw, which is your range anyway. They have been taken deeper quite a bit, the gas delievery system works to around 100m. The fairly small scrubber is the main reason to limit depth (and liability). A larger scrubber was announced at DEMA.

The SportKiss also includes an OC second stage integrated into the DSV, a quarter turn to close the loop and you're breathing of the 2nd stage. Beats both Dräger and OMG DSVs.

And with a CCR you only have to plan ahead your general diving to choose your dil, air or mix. Everthing else you can plan when you know the actual dive site.

In simplicity the SportKiss beats either SCR, it's a wonderfull little design. In fit and finish it easily matches the Azi, and both beat the flimsy Dräger.

Finally the prices are in close proximity. Last list on the Dräger I know of was $3,650, though I've seen 'em for less in stores that wanted to get rid of them. Add bailout tank with valve and first stage. The last Azi price I've heard was $4,500 for a new unit, at least they are ready to dive. As mantioned, I would not go without pO2 monitor, anywhere between $500 to over $2,000 for ZO2/Oxy2 and Azi adapter! :11:

The SportKiss complete with sensors, BC and tanks goes for $4,780.
Without bc and tanks $4,000.


Yes, that's the type of SCR I was taling about. The Halcyon as well as the GUE training for it are very good and very expensive. Been a while since I talked to them, but a complete rig is over $10K, and if you're not GUE trained add three classes before you can take the SCR class.

But there are small companies in Germany building SCRs ... inspired by the Buchaly's design, and I would prefer one or two of those over active addition SCRs for extended range (deep or long) dives. One of them is even pursuing a training course for their unit, something that so far has been sorely lacking.


Nothing wrong with that in my book if you have the equipment and skills to do it.
Your skills I don't know, but your equipment would fall short of my requirements.
Not a problem for me as long as I don't have to use it.

If you switch to a rebreather however, even with fully redundant OC bailout, you should stay away from solo diving, at least for a long while. Solo diving has been involved in a lot of rebreather fatalities (and I mean involved, not necessarily caused).
If you switch to any rebreather, you'll be starting from scratch!

Good reading. One question i have with the Sport Kiss, is i heard there are no water trap's ? Is this true? As i am thinking of all ready selling my Dolphin and going to CCR , as i found SCR really not that more efficent for myself then O/C. Ive only been diving the Dolphin for around 4 month's now? But im all ready looking into the Kiss or Sport Kiss for now, and one day maybe i'll move upto a Insperation or somthing

 

[Life-Is-Good-Diver]

Do any rebreather divers ever "meet up" in the caribbean, florida, etc. for diving? I will be the only person I know using an RB, so it looks like I'm going to need to make some new friends who have some exerience!

(Hey, I brew beer for a living so at least I'm useful at :59: after-dive parties!)

Hey i live in FL and myself and a few of us dive rebreather's, drop us a PM when your heading down

 

[Life-Is-Good-Diver]

Debersole - Thanks, I may very well take you up on one of those kind offers.

Jagfish - Ok, good point, I have added more information. Just don't expect it to be very interesting or you'll be disappointed!

I can tell you Debersole trained both my friend and myself on both unit's, and i would highley recommend him for SCR training, ive been through alot of training through scuba diving, and he is very knowledgable, and respectable Instructor here in FL.

 

[caveseeker7]

Good reading. One question i have with the Sport Kiss, is i heard there are no water trap's ? Is this true?

Thanks.
The Sport Kiss doesn't have water traps, at least not in the current stock configuration.
Jetsam designed some small on-the-shoulder CL to lower breathing resistance for CE certification. They are to be used in conjunction with the normal bags in the back.
A water deflector is fitted, turning them into water traps if needed. Attached two pics from DEMA prototypes, don't know when or for how much they'll be available.

 

[padiscubapro]

There have been multiple deaths on scrs and more than one close call by divers that have gone hypoxic.. There are probably many more SCR deaths tha CCR deaths.

Its VERY easy to overbreath an SCR.. If your mix was calculated for a specific VO2 and you get caught in a nasty current your po2 is dropping, if your mix was optimized for depth, it can be A REAL problem if you have to work when shallow.. This is not a problem at all for a CCR.. Sure the loop will be dropping but your adding a rich mix to a small loop and not venting any rich gas..

depending on the SCR, and its gas injection point, you could be dumping some rich gas not just your "used" loop gas.

I have SEEN SCR diver PASS OUT on the surface because they were swimming hard on the loop that was planned for "deeper" recreational dives..

Anyone who believes you can safely dive ANY rebreather without some form of PO2 monitoring is a fool.. Flow rates do get screwed up.. You do work harder than planned..

Sure 99.99% of the time it works well, but do you want to be the .01% that the loop went hypoxic on and didn't know it..

The KISS is very difficult to overbreath It is a CCR it always has a stable loop volume, the flow rate is set slightly below your metabolic rate and it drops VERY slowly.. Even if you started busting your but it takes alot to drop the loop since 100% oxygen is being steadily added to the loop. You also have 3 INDEPENDENTLY powered and calibrated sensors to tell you want you are breathing.. All the training on the KISS drills you into checking your PO2.. WHen sensors go bad they read LOW not high so if anything happens its probably an OTOX issue.. but even thats pretty unlikely since most CCR divers run 1.2 - 1.3 po2, even a non linear cell reading 1.3 at worse the loop is probably a ~1.6 or so (unless you seriously are using cells beyond what they should be, and thats still doubtful if you calibrate with oxygen - It COULD possible be worse for a cell calibrated in air(and not checked by an oxygen flush))and you still have a good amount of time before Otox becomes an issue..

 

[padiscubapro]

Pawel - I'm with you on the SCR/CCR debate, and it's good to hear it from someone with experience on both types. On a SCR a PPO2 monitor verifies that everything is working fine, BUT if the PPo2 monitor fails then theoretically the rebreather will still be working. But a CCR relies on the PPO2 monitor for even basic operation. That's the part I'm not ready to deal with yet.

CaveSeeker7 - I also agree with you that I wouldn't want to dive EITHER TYPE without some type of PPO2 monitor, at least something like a Draeger OxyGauge if not an intergrated system like Uwatec's solution. I also agree that CCR's are more efficient and have an elegance in their operation. Maybe I'll get there someday.

QUOTE: "For myself, when I need doubles there's better a rebreather in between."
MY RESPONSE "That's what I started thinking when I began considering doubles!"

As far as the bail out open circuit being on the DSV or separate, obviously I have no experience with either one, but if I had to make the choice right this minute I think I would prefer a separate bail-out regulator. One reason is that it would be independent from a mouthpiece/valve/physical failure in the DSV. Also I like the look of the smaller, simpler DSV's; they <u>appear</u> cleaner and more comfortable. I also have no problem retrieving/changing regs underwater and won't be diving in heavily silted or restrictive cave environments.

I found a rebreather instructor in my area on the internet. Does anyone know anything about Jeff Johnson of DiveSafety? He teaches the inspiration, megalodon, and azimuth. Not the dolphin, but I think I will contact him for at least an introductore class on the Azimuth and see what happens.

jeff is an experienced instructor and cave diver (and doesn't hesitate to ask questions and opinions from others).

I wouldn't hesitate recommending him for a moment..
even though hes not ANDI

 

[Life-Is-Good-Diver]

There have been multiple deaths on scrs and more than one close call by divers that have gone hypoxic.. There are probably many more SCR deaths tha CCR deaths.

Its VERY easy to overbreath an SCR.. If your mix was calculated for a specific VO2 and you get caught in a nasty current your po2 is dropping, if your mix was optimized for depth, it can be A REAL problem if you have to work when shallow.. This is not a problem at all for a CCR.. Sure the loop will be dropping but your adding a rich mix to a small loop and not venting any rich gas..

depending on the SCR, and its gas injection point, you could be dumping some rich gas not just your "used" loop gas.

I have SEEN SCR diver PASS OUT on the surface because they were swimming hard on the loop that was planned for "deeper" recreational dives..

Anyone who believes you can safely dive ANY rebreather without some form of PO2 monitoring is a fool.. Flow rates do get screwed up.. You do work harder than planned..

Sure 99.99% of the time it works well, but do you want to be the .01% that the loop went hypoxic on and didn't know it..

The KISS is very difficult to overbreath It is a CCR it always has a stable loop volume, the flow rate is set slightly below your metabolic rate and it drops VERY slowly.. Even if you started busting your but it takes alot to drop the loop since 100% oxygen is being steadily added to the loop. You also have 3 INDEPENDENTLY powered and calibrated sensors to tell you want you are breathing.. All the training on the KISS drills you into checking your PO2.. WHen sensors go bad they read LOW not high so if anything happens its probably an OTOX issue.. but even thats pretty unlikely since most CCR divers run 1.2 - 1.3 po2, even a non linear cell reading 1.3 at worse the loop is probably a ~1.6 or so (unless you seriously are using cells beyond what they should be, and thats still doubtful if you calibrate with oxygen - It COULD possible be worse for a cell calibrated in air(and not checked by an oxygen flush))and you still have a good amount of time before Otox becomes an issue..

I agree 100% , as i run 3 sensor's in my dolphin, 2 in the Air-Z )2 with OXY 2, and 1 in the OXY-Gauge. I am not really happy with the Dolphin,, and only after 4 months into diving SCR, im looking to go into CCR.

Problem im facing is alot of my more tech diving has been a thing of the past, and i find myself diving alot more rec., deepest really only going to 150'

Im thinking of looking into a Sport Kiss . i don;t want to change the topic of this thread, as it's been a good reading one, but what's your opioun of diving CCR like the Sport Kiss, for rec diving? For the amount of work is needed, and the little you gain over OC, from SCR, is somthing like the sport kiss to much work also, like SCR?

I have close to 5k invested into my SCR unit and to be honest, alot of people warned me about SCR really not being much advantage over OC, and just going to CCR. Im looking more into CCR like the Sport Kiss for reef's from 30', to wreck down to 150' , and i love diving rebreather's over OC , but i miss the day's of just sliding my BC over the tank,,screwing on my reg's, and being done, simplicity !!!

Thank you and sorry i don;t mean to change topic's here.

 

[wedivebc]

I agree 100% , as i run 3 sensor's in my dolphin, 2 in the Air-Z )2 with OXY 2, and 1 in the OXY-Gauge. I am not really happy with the Dolphin,, and only after 4 months into diving SCR, im looking to go into CCR.

Problem im facing is alot of my more tech diving has been a thing of the past, and i find myself diving alot more rec., deepest really only going to 150'

Im thinking of looking into a Sport Kiss . i don;t want to change the topic of this thread, as it's been a good reading one, but what's your opioun of diving CCR like the Sport Kiss, for rec diving? For the amount of work is needed, and the little you gain over OC, from SCR, is somthing like the sport kiss to much work also, like SCR?

I have close to 5k invested into my SCR unit and to be honest, alot of people warned me about SCR really not being much advantage over OC, and just going to CCR. Im looking more into CCR like the Sport Kiss for reef's from 30', to wreck down to 150' , and i love diving rebreather's over OC , but i miss the day's of just sliding my BC over the tank,,screwing on my reg's, and being done, simplicity !!!

Thank you and sorry i don;t mean to change topic's here.

Close the loop, close the loop, close the loop!
www.tmishop.com
another couple of hundred bucks and your dolphin can do some real diving.

 

[Life-Is-Good-Diver]

Close the loop, close the loop, close the loop!
www.tmishop.com
another couple of hundred bucks and your dolphin can do some real diving.

Hey Wedivebc, was just going to drop you a PM,

I have a buddy doing a conversion right now on his Dolphin, i'll pm you

 

[wedivebc]

Hey Wedivebc, was just going to drop you a PM,

I have a buddy doing a conversion right now on his Dolphin, i'll pm you

BTW: lots of good RB info here. http://www.rebreatherworld.com/ I dove with Stuart (the site operator) and his SO in Nanaimo when they were getting trained on their new megs. He was formerly a dolphin owner as well.