Any PADI instructors here who are also DIR compliant?

[boulderjohn]

Where's the e-mail John? I never received it and I don't see it posted?

Here is the post in the thread you cited above in which I quoted the email and offered to forward it to anyone who is interested.
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ad...455080-when-skill-mastered-5.html#post6780802
You did not ask for it to be forwarded to you, and I need an email address to do that.

You think that you have corrected me and DevonDiver (a current PADI professional Instructor), but your arguments seem invalid to us. You read an article and perhaps speak to the author (?)

That shows how well you have read the posts. I didn't "perhaps speak to the author." I AM the author. In writing the article (with the able assistance of other ScubaBoard personalities you have been arguing with), I conferred directly with PADI headquarters, and they assisted in its writing as well. There is not a word in that article that was not cleared by PADI headquarters. The email that says that the article is a valid reflection of PADI standards comes directly from PADI headquarters.

and suggest that this is sufficient to override the specific Standards and Agreements between a PADI Instructor and the PADI Corporation.

It does not override any specific standard whatsoever. Do you seriously think PADI as an organization would publish an article in its professional journal instructing its members to act in violation of its own standards? Do you realize how foolish that sounds?

And you fail to understand that ANYONE can write an article and it means NOTHING. Articles are not Standards! Unless the Standards indicate otherwise, it's meaningless. What about that don't you understand???

PADI helped write the article--not "anyone." Anyone can write an article, but not everyone can get it published in the official PADI professional journal. Once again, nothing in it--nothing--violates a standard. What part of that don't you understand? Can you show me one standard that it violates?

I have asked. BTW, this discussion is not about how PADI Instructors teach buoyancy. I haven't discussed anything on this topic. Again you accuse me of something that's a figment of your imagination. T

That was the topic of the discussion to which you linked. That is the topic of the article you and DevonDiver said was a violation of standards.

 

[DCBC]

Here is the post in the thread you cited above in which I quoted the email and offered to forward it to anyone who is interested. You did not ask for it to be forwarded to you, and I need an email address to do that. ...That shows how well you have read the posts.

No, it shows how well you read the posts: "Please forward this to me John. Better still, cut and paste it here for all to see. I will be sure to comment" (Post 69 of this thread).

I didn't "perhaps speak to the author." I AM the author. In writing the article (with the able assistance of other ScubaBoard personalities you have been arguing with), I conferred directly with PADI headquarters, and they assisted in its writing as well. There is not a word in that article that was not cleared by PADI headquarters. The email that says that the article is a valid reflection of PADI standards comes directly from PADI headquarters.

I see; you have no authority with PADI, you write an article that expresses opinion (yours and others?) and then present the article as a reference? Surely as an academic, you should know that this is without credibility. It's solely an opinion.

I don't need to read the article to know your opinion; you've expressed it clearly. In the context of PADI Standards, it's as meaningless as mine. "No deviations from Standards" is your Agreement with PADI (PADI Instructor's Agreement) and it is this and not articles in-which PADI's official policy is based. If you disagree with this, either redefine the phrase "No deviations from Standards," or post a PADI document that has the authority of Standards.

It does not override any specific standard whatsoever. Do you seriously think PADI as an organization would publish an article in its professional journal instructing its members to act in violation of its own standards? Do you realize how foolish that sounds? ...PADI helped write the article--not "anyone." Anyone can write an article, but not everyone can get it published in the official PADI professional journal. Once again, nothing in it--nothing--violates a standard. What part of that don't you understand? Can you show me one standard that it violates?

Not having read the article, I can't say that it violates any PADI Standard. I can say that if you suggested anything other than following the precise standards articulated by PADI, it would be in violation.

The PADI Chaiman of the Board could write a thousand articles expressing his opinion (in consultation with the entire Board) and the article would be meaningless. For it to be meaningful it must be expressed within the appropriate area: PADI standards. As it stands, a PADI Instructor cannot change any aspect of the Standards.

If you had read the OP's comments, you would have understood that I've responded to running a PADI OW program in a similar way as the GUE Rec 1 program. As the swimming requirements of the PADI OW program would require changing, this couldn't be done in the PADI OW program for that element alone. In the GUE Rec 1 the Student has a requirement to swim unaided.

That was the topic of the discussion to which you linked. That is the topic of the article you and DevonDiver said was a violation of standards.

If you look, I made NO statement. I only suggested that Dan might find the link interesting.

You stated: "...there is nothing in the standards requiring instruction on the knees, despite your (and DevonDiver's) ridiculous assertion to the contrary." If you actually read this thread, you would see that I have made NO such statement to this effect. It's Andy that you should be discussing this with, but you failed to respond to his last posting.

It's just one more time that you've wrongly stated that I've said something that I didn't. You are becoming fairly consistent in this John and I believe it's affecting your credibility.



Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence. - John Adams

 

[danvolker]

Errol Kalayci just told me that he is about to start teaching a GUE Open Water Class ( Rec 1 ) with the first class beginning July 22nd.

While this won't have an IMMEDIATE effect on getting hundreds of PADI instructors in Florida to stop kneeling on top of the delicate marine life with their students at the BHB....I think this better way should get some press !!!

If anyone wants more details, let me know.....

 

[DevonDiver]

Can you show me one standard that it violates?

This was covered to death in the previous thread. Plenty of quotations and references were given. I fail to see the point of playing that record again, when you've shown an absolute intention not to accept the evidence presented to you.

John, you're defending your friend here,... and the article which you contributed to.... not PADI. The two are not inexorably linked.

Nothing you have presented is a formal policy by PADI. It's all back-door, imprecise and implied stuff. In contrast, PADI do provide public formal policy by way of their standards and training bulletins. As an education professional, I am surprised that you cannot differentiate between them. I can only think that your involvement in the article has caused significant bias in your opinion. A bias that you seem unwilling to accept.

You seem to have convinced yourself that I have an axe to grind against PADI. That's illogical - I'm a PADI instructor. I've made my views on quality training quite evident on this forum for years - I am all in favor of development of the course syllabus and increased flexibility to provide more effective teaching. I view an early transition to neutral buoyancy as a positive development.

However, in regard to debate which we have had on the subject, my only input has been to accurately clarify the formal PADI guidance on that issue. I've quoted and referenced the applicable standards to substantiate that. Nothing more, nothing less. I have offered no opinion or critique on the agency on this matter. If you can manage to re-read my input on the subject again... without the prejudice of assumption... then this should be clear to you.

 

[boulderjohn]

No, it shows how well you read the posts: "Please forward this to me John. Better still, cut and paste it here for all to see. I will be sure to comment" (Post 69 of this thread).

I need an email address.

I see; you have no authority with PADI, you write an article that expresses opinion (yours and others?) and then present the article as a reference? Surely as an academic, you should know that this is without credibility. It's solely an opinion.

Once again,1) it was co-written by PADI headquarters; 2) It appeared in an official PADI publication with the intention of showing instructors how to do something; 3) I have an email, from PADI headquarters saying it is a valid representation of their belief, and I will send it to you once you give me an email. If it were jsut my opinion and not their, it would not have been published. I am not trying tp persuade you on this. I know you will not change your mind. I assume everyone with a firing brain cell who is reading can understand this.

I don't need to read the article to know your opinion; you've expressed it clearly. In the context of PADI Standards, it's as meaningless as mine. "No deviations from Standards" is your Agreement with PADI (PADI Instructor's Agreement) and it is this and not articles in-which PADI's official policy is based. If you disagree with this, either redefine the phrase "No deviations from Standards," or post a PADI document that has the authority of Standards.

Once again, it does not deviate from standards. You have not shown one example in which it does. Andy (DevonDiver keeps quoting the Guide to Teaching, which SUGGESTS how some of the INITIAL skills MIGHT be taught. That is not a standard. As the email from PADI headquarters clearly says, the article has as much authority as the Guide to Teaching.

Not having read the article, I can't say that it violates any PADI Standard. I can say that if you suggested anything other than following the precise standards articulated by PADI, it would be in violation.

1If you have not read the article, how can you say that it deviates from standard?

---------- Post added July 3rd, 2013 at 01:54 PM ----------

This was covered to death in the previous thread. Plenty of quotations and references were given. I fail to see the point of playing that record again, when you've shown an absolute intention not to accept the evidence presented to you.

John, you're defending your friend here,... and the article which you contributed to.... not PADI. The two are not inexorably linked.

Nothing you have presented is a formal policy by PADI. It's all back-door, imprecise and implied stuff. In contrast, PADI do provide public formal policy by way of their standards and training bulletins. As an education professional, I am surprised that you cannot differentiate between them. I can only think that your involvement in the article has caused significant bias in your opinion. A bias that you seem unwilling to accept.

You seem to have convinced yourself that I have an axe to grind against PADI. That's illogical - I'm a PADI instructor. I've made my views on quality training quite evident on this forum for years - I am all in favor of development of the course syllabus and increased flexibility to provide more effective teaching. I view an early transition to neutral buoyancy as a positive development.

However, in regard to debate which we have had on the subject, my only input has been to accurately clarify the formal PADI guidance on that issue. I've quoted and referenced the applicable standards to substantiate that. Nothing more, nothing less. I have offered no opinion or critique on the agency on this matter. If you can manage to re-read my input on the subject again... without the prejudice of assumption... then this should be clear to you.

No, Andy, you keep quoting the Guide to Teaching, which as PADI headquarters said, is only a suggestion. It only suggests on the knees for the introduction of a couple of skills. You have never cited a sigle example where it violates a standard. A suggestion will not become a standard, no matter how many times you quote it.

As far as suggestions go, why not try this one that I have given you often? I have contacted two different people at PADI headquarters and gotten definitive response from both. Is there some reason that you refuse to contact PADI yourself for a definitive explanation, or that you have not asked to have the copy the email sent to you?

 

[danvolker]

Starts about 12 seconds in....what can result from the current PADI "Standards"..... Maybe "Standards" need to be higher?

[video=youtube_share;UVpD08Ko2DY]http://youtu.be/UVpD08Ko2DY[/video]

 

[Ste Wart]

For all these arguments there is little proof that teaching on the knees leads to bad divers. What is happening is that as most divers have been taught on their knees then this technique had been offered up as the blame. One could equally say that all bad divers have been taught wearing a snorkel and this is the problem, or air is a terrible gas to learn on we should all dive nitrox in the pool.
The actuality is that poor instruction leads to poor divers. That can come from a kneeling diver and a neutral buoyancy diver if their instructor 'phones it in' for the course.

 

[danvolker]

For all these arguments there is little proof that teaching on the knees leads to bad divers. What is happening is that as most divers have been taught on their knees then this technique had been offered up as the blame. One could equally say that all bad divers have been taught wearing a snorkel and this is the problem, or air is a terrible gas to learn on we should all dive nitrox in the pool.
The actuality is that poor instruction leads to poor divers. That can come from a kneeling diver and a neutral buoyancy diver if their instructor 'phones it in' for the course.

I think if you teach all your students that it is UNACCEPTABLE to do any skill kneeling or standing on the bottom...that they must be hovering--then your students will end up with a much higher level of skill( whether from practicing more, taking the impact with the bottom more seriously, the need for better instruction and true understanding to avoid using the bottom) --and the students will be far less likely to ever allow themselves to be so sloppy that they impact with the bottom.

I see many Instructors that are so sloppy that they will kick the bottom or kneel on it for mask clearing or dealing with a gear issue...they are used to having the bottom as a crutch--as an easy way to do some things. PADI standards are poor because they create a pattern of behavior like this.

The difference between instructors is often enormous....some so horrifically bad..some extremely good....Standards are implicated in this discrepancy. I will say this again...it is not uncommon to see a PADI instructor that is a very poor diver. Poor buoyancy, poor kicking skills, lots of sloppiness.

This underscores what we have been saying on SB for many years now, that a new student should not choose an agency, they should try to find a good instructor. The real danger, is in the large number of really bad instructors.

I can video a bunch of these in any given weekend at the BHB--they will be from "out of town", they will be from a high volume operation that is looking for cheap everything. They won't be the only bad instructors, but they will be the most consistently bad.

 

[aprivetera]

Wouldn't it be common sense to move your OW class to a sandy part of some dive site? Is there a standard on where you have to dive?

 

[DCBC]

John, regardless of what you have written, or who you have consorted with to write this article; it's only an article!!!! It's only an opinion and has nothing to do with PADI policy!!!!!!!! Why is this so hard for you to understand?????? You do not write PADI policy. If you did, it would be written in the Standards and not in an article...