Any PADI instructors here who are also DIR compliant?

[danvolker]

OK, I'm now totally confused by all this "standards" stuff. DCBC, Dan, DD, just what PADI standards are wrong or result in teaching bad diving skills? I'd really like to know because I'm starting another Open Water class this coming Monday and I don't want to teach badly if I can possible help it.

Peter,
I have no doubt that what you teach will be excellent, and that you will turn out great divers. And guys like you, and some of the local instructors I know here in Palm Beach, are part of this whole confusion with PADI....The confusion is that there ARE some really good instructors, that crank out optimally trained divers.....it is confusing because of the EXPECTATION the public would have from a word like "Standards". The expectation is that there would be a level of skill, ability, comfort, quality of diver that would be turned out by a system with a well defined series of steps to be taught, and the expectation is that each step must be taken, before the next step is reached, and the finished product is predictable over anyone that would be a PADI instructor....

The reality is very different....it is alot like what happened in Liberal Arts colleges back around the mid to late 70's....prior to this, it was all about strict guidelines and hard grades, and if you were between a 3.5 and a 4.0 average, you would be well received in the business or professional world. Then some schools came out with a different plan, pretty much pass or fail, and it was supposed to be a new and better approach to learning....When I was looking at colleges intially in New england, I visited a few of these, but my parents would not consider anything so ridiculous for me. In fact, some students at these schools did quite well later in life--some because there were some individual teachers at some schools, that were incredible teachers....and what was most important was teaching kids how to think and to learn.....However, there were way more average teachers, and huge numbers of kids that picked these schools for the easy pass/fail system, and they were pathetic in what they failed to learn. You might say that if you wanted to go to med school, forget it with one of these pass/fail schools.

Back to PADI....the reality is that the public has no REAL Standard to expect from a PADI instructor....any given step can be "reached" in many different ways....and in a world where one instructor's standard is met for buoyancy when a student kneels and bounces along the bottom alot--but ultimately can make it to the surface....and in that same world, another uses a strictness more in line with GUE levels of buoyancy skills and hovering...in this world there IS NO DISTINCTION between skill levels.....there is no good or bad...only credit card paid, or not paid.

So PADI does have some Rain Man like Instructors, that do a spectacular job....and this has pretty much nothing to do with PADI Standards--these guys/girls are just great teachers. They would be just as good if they were NAUI or NASE or SSI or whatever...the teaching skill is "theirs".

And PADI has huge numbers of pass/fail type instructors, that may or may not see the skill level for each step with as much quality control as "WE" would want or expect. And this same group WILL turn out certified new divers, that are horribly unprepared to survive on their own in the ocean....and they will be told PADI is modular, and now they need to do the AOW, and a host of other classes--also just pass/fail, with no real quality control as to what each skill should really be performed like. Each is open to the interpretation of the instructor. And when the instructor does not know how to kick properly, or the instructor has no idea how to achieve neutral buoyancy without kneeling or lying on the bottom, what do you think this will say about the skills he will impart to his students? This is having a "Lack of Standards".....there is no good expectation....I wish there was a word in the English language I could insert for PADI to replace Standards....it would mean "Lack of Standards"....in a sentence, it would be..." In this course, you must follow our cherished PADI "Lack of Standards" in deciding what skills and what skill levels you will impart to each of your students."

So the deal is, to those of us in diving, that see beyond the massive advertising and PR campaign, we know that PADI Standards are a sick joke, but we also know that there are so many PADI instructors, that there are really alot of great PADI instructors in the world--even if it is just because 10% of a huge number, is still a huge number.

The new potential student, believes the advertising and PR, and thinks PADI is the best way to go....if the student gets lucky, they get someone like you Peter. If they are unlucky, they get a "different" interpretation of "standards", by a very inferior instructor, and they end up diving like one of my horror videos ( which I can post again if you need me to )

Standards is the wrong word for what PADI has.

 

[DCBC]

It's very easy to exceed PADI standards in teaching/certifying OW divers without "getting in trouble" from PADI or anyone else.

So you don't believe a PADI Instructor has to conform with the Standards and not deviate at all from them? Perhaps you might review your Agreement with PADI...

If you're going to be honest about what "we both know" you'll have to agree that while NAUI instructors may not have to "conform to a paint-by-numbers way of teaching" the fact of the matter is... a great many NAUI instructors do just that.

Perhaps you might explain to me how a NAUI Instructor can possibly follow a "teach-by-numbers system" (which doesn't exist within NAUI)? CW3 means absolutely nothing to a NAUI Instructor. Does it have any specific meaning to you? What you are suppose to teach on the third confined water training session perhaps?

Your statement "a great many NAUI instructors do just that" is blatently incorrect. If you knew anything about the NAUI organization, you wouldn't be making such a fallacy. Some Agencies provide their Instructor with the academic freedom to teach diving in a way that they believe appropriate, in consideration of the student(s) and diving conditions. Others do not.

 

[pholife]

Can you "demand" more without getting into trouble?

From my experience and discussions with a course director, the problem is exceeding the level of training in PADI courses, if an accident were to occur during any of the excersizes you would be "negligent" for teaching outside the guidelines of the course.

I initially asked this question to a CD in regards to teaching how to control a free flow reg in a rescue course (now keep inmind I didn't teach it until after the course was finished, thus outside the realms of standards, just a diver teaching another diver a self rescue technique) I had a very experienced cold water diver in a rescue course and while we were practicing the "Self-Rescue" portion of the CW training, he asked if it were possible to open and close the valve in the event of a free flowing frozen reg. If the dive center where I was teaching had sidemount equipment, it would have made a great con-ed sale.
Back to the point, I thought in the water, is it correct to teach the student to reach over their right shoulder for valve control and my initial thought was too risky for the less advanced students in the water... Later that day I ran into a good buddy and CD and over a beer explained the question, my thoughts and his reply was teach it afterwards, your no longer an instructor (per say) just a diver-diver lesson... fortunately that dive center was flexible with me taking extra time for COW so after the completion of the rescue I took my student into COW and taught him to reach his valve and control a free flow...

As for the equipment side of things, I myself have never worked anywhere where BP and Wings were available for student divers, but I did work where vback inflation BC's were used rather than Jacket style... obviously the surface skills were tough for the students (hilarious to watch bcd r&R) but below water trim was much much better than the bike riding OW students in jacket style bcd's... these were the scubapro Equator Bc. after managing that dive center for quite some time, I really think these are great for a) a Dive center as the clip on the waist release is easy to replace (compared to a jacket style, which is connected to the bladder of the BC) but also for the students to gain mastery over skills, such as bc r&r ... I still would opt for jacket style for students but this was an interesting time to compare the two.

As for DIR, I think using a long hose for an OW diver is a bad idea, sure the length gives your an advantage, but personally, I will not use a reg with a long hose for anything demonstation, too confusing and that hose can get entangled... how many times do we see our students gauges and octo's hanging about... BEER POINTS

 

[RJP]

Your statement "a great many NAUI instructors do just that" is blatently incorrect. If you knew anything about the NAUI organization, you wouldn't be making such a fallacy. Some Agencies provide their Instructor with the academic freedom to teach diving in a way that they believe appropriate, in consideration of the student(s) and diving conditions. Others do not.

So you're suggesting there aren't any NAUI instructors that are a bit slack, do the minimum necessary to get students through the class, process a card and move on? That every NAUI instructor is a rigorous, top-flight trainer, churning out WKPP-quality divers... and that every PADI instructor is mindless automaton who pantomimes what's written in a PADI binder and hands c-cards to anyone who can hold still for their photo?

Perhaps NAUI instructors don't follow a proscribed teaching syllabus... but I've seen plenty of NAUI instructors that are perfectly fine with just "checking the boxes" and going through the motions necessary to minimally train the students under their tutelage. (NAUI also apparently provides THESE instructors with the freedom to teach diving in a way that they believe appropriate.) And I know PADI instructors who can bring any OW student who wants to apply themselves up to GUE standards.

The continual drone of "NAUI instructors are universally phenomenal, PADI instructors are universally horrible" (which flies in the face of even casual observation) not only strains credulity but is intellectually lazy and tiresome beyond belief.

 

[Peter Guy]

Dan -- is it your contention that ONLY PADI certified instructors teach their students "on the knees" and thus are responsible for all of the bad diving you see? Could it possibly be that other agencies also allow (encourage?) instruction you find bad?

DCBC -- it is my understanding that a NAUI instructor could not teach a class identical to GUE Rec 1 -- at least from the standpoint of gear configuration. I'm not a NAUI instructor and don't have access to NAUI standards (and there are standards, are there not?) but I've been told that ALL students and instructors MUST have a snorkel attached to their mask at all times during an OW class. I know that GUE does NOT have such a requirement. As a PADI instructor I have the discretion as to WHERE the snorkel may be as long as it is in the possession of the diver. Perhaps a minor point, but just one that I happen to know (at least I think I know).

You seem to believe that NAUI's "flexibility" in teaching is a benefit -- and I agree that, in some cases, it is. OTOH, I also believe it may well be detrimental too for I, as someone getting a "NAUI Trained" student will really have no idea what that training may have been. At the very least, when I get a "PADI Trained" student I do have an idea as to what the training was.

Last point -- you seem to believe that the word "exceed" is equivalent to the word "deviate." Since many of us have written over and over again that we, as PADI instructors are encouraged, nay required, to "flesh out" the standards and as a regular matter of course, do so, you may well find that we "exceed" and/or "deviate" from those standards. We do not -- but you are welcome to your own fantasy on this point. Exceeding/expanding (expounding?) on the "standards" is what teaching is all about -- but such is not necessarily (!) deviating from those standards.

My guess is that ALL agencies prohibit their instructors from "deviating" from standards -- otherwise, could there be such a thing as a "standard?" Granted, as a PADI instructor I may not withhold certification from a student as long as they meet (or exceed!) the standards as written, unlike, I guess, a NAUI instructor, but, honestly, as long as a student can meet (to MY satisfaction) the standards as written under the conditions in which we dive, I'm good with that.

 

[danvolker]

Dan -- is it your contention that ONLY PADI certified instructors teach their students "on the knees" and thus are responsible for all of the bad diving you see? Could it possibly be that other agencies also allow (encourage?) instruction you find bad?

.

No.... But there are a lot more bad PADI instructors...there are alot more PADI instructors also
Again, the issue is the agency misuse of the word "Standards". PADI does not really have "Standards" in any meaningful way, as has been demonstrated ad nausum in this thread so far.

Yet there are many very good PADI Instructors, despite this lack of real agency standards.....and again, the dilemma for a prospective student, is the impossibility for most to discern a good PADI instructor from the many BAD ones.....amid the revelation that both the good and the bad are "within standards".....again, proof the Standards should not be called Standards....maybe as a PADI instructor you should call the this "PADI's Wishes"...and some are better at delivering "PADI's Wishes" than others are.....

 

[DevonDiver]

DD Thank you. I take it from what you just wrote that it is NOT your contention that PADI Standards REQUIRE skills to be demonstrated, learned and evaluated with either the student or the instructor "on the knees."

However, it is certainly implied that such skills are to be, at the least, introduced while "on the knees."

Is that a fair summary?

Peter, at no point do PADI standards stipulate that skills must be taught "on the knees". Therefore, I think it is absolutely fair to say that this is not a defined standard.

It may be fair to believe that many (most?) instructors would assume that such conduct was, at least, implied... or encouraged, by the plethora of official instructional media depicting confined water skill instruction in a kneeling position, by the directions provided in the "PADI Guide to Teaching" and through the use of wording like "on the bottom".

Given that neutral buoyancy skills are specifically introduced in a progressive manner (LPI operation - fin pivot - hover) over subsequent confined water dives, it is hard to reconcile how an instructor can 'teach students in neutral buoyancy' at an early stage, when they are specifically prohibited from introducing the skills necessary for neutral buoyancy during those stages.

In respect to a pure definition of standards, of defined skills, and of PADI's stipulation that skills may not be introduced before the designated training session - there are clearly defined standards that prohibit an expectation or assessment of student buoyancy in the initial stages of confined water training. This seems very at odds with the quoted article's recommendations for an "early transition into neutral buoyancy". In short, the transition into neutral buoyancy is progressively introduced at pre-defined stages and governed by clear standards. Any decision by an individual instructor to introduce those skills at an earlier stage would be a breach of the standards laid out in the Instructor Manual and, consequently, would be a breach of that instructors' "Membership Agreement" and would leave that instructor exposed to risk of Quality Assurance action by PADI or, at least, to risk of litigation without PADI support due to the standards breach.

 

[RJP]

PADI does not really have "Standards" in any meaningful way, as has been [-]demonstrated[/-] postulated/opined/suggested ad nausum in this thread so far.

Fixed it for you.

 

[DCBC]

So you're suggesting there aren't any NAUI instructors that are a bit slack, do the minimum necessary to get students through the class, process a card and move on?

No, if you read the thread you will see that I've stated that their are bad Instructors in all Agencies.

Perhaps NAUI instructors don't follow a proscribed teaching syllabus... but I've seen plenty of NAUI instructors that are perfectly fine with just "checking the boxes" and going through the motions necessary to minimally train the students under their tutelage. (NAUI also apparently provides THESE instructors with the freedom to teach diving in a way that they believe appropriate.)

Yes, NAUI does not follow a teach-by-numbers method of instruction. The Instructor must cover "Minimum Standards" as set-out by NAUI before the Student may be certified. NAUI encourages Instructors to teach past the minimums. Generally speaking, Instructors who want to teach the minimums teach for PADI because the minimums are all that can be taught ("no deviation from the Standard"). NAUI Instructors usually (but not always) teach more than the minimums.

The philosophies of the two organizations are clearly different. Perhaps this is historically shown when each Agency had a minimum course time for Diver certification. PADI OW was 27 hours, NAUI SCUBA Diver was 44 hours. NAUI's focus was on education, where PADI's focus was on profit generation (I'm not talking about individual Instructors here, but the Agencies themselves).

As I mentioned previously, when I was a PADI Instructor, I felt that the Divers I produced were competent. Unfortunately however, I had to exceed Standards to do it. PADI called me on it, so I left PADI. I can teach for NAUI and CMAS (or a number of other organizations) who require Divers to be competent to dive unsupervised in local conditions and add whatever is required to the program. Like PADI, NAUI establishes standards, but they realize that the World possesses different diving environments that may require different levels of knowledge and skill-sets. This must be addressed by the NAUI Instructor and the onus is on him to insure that the training program he delivers will adequately prepare the Diver for the local environment.

A PADI Instructor can get in trouble with his organization if he teaches the Student anything outside of the Standards. A NAUI Instructor can get in trouble with his organization if he fails to teach anything that's required outside of the Standards.

The continual drone of "NAUI instructors are universally phenomenal, PADI instructors are universally horrible" (which flies in the face of even casual observation) not only strains credulity but is intellectually lazy and tiresome beyond belief.

That's not what I said... A PADI Instructor following Standards and a NAUI Instructor following "Minimum Standards" can be equally phenomenal when teaching in ideal conditions. A PADI Instructor following Standards and a NAUI Instructor following "Minimum Standards" can be equally horrible when teaching in more challenging conditions. Both PADI and NAUI have designed their Standards (NAUI Minimum Standards) for ideal diving conditions. When the diving conditions change, so should the Standards. This is precisely why NAUI has "Minimum Standards." NAUI expects the Instructor to surpass them when diving conditions change and in all cases, encourages them to do so.

 

[Tortuga68]

It's my understanding that you can't refuse to certify a diver that met PADI standards during a PADI course... I think this is what DCBC & DD are on about?

Is it not also true that you can teach to a higher standard (without requiring it for certification, and assuming you follow the PADI sequence/cover the PADI syllabus) when this is done in 'fun time' i.e additonal to the core course, which I think is what Peter, John etc are on about?

Honestly I really don't get what you guys are arguing about, apart from semantics