Any PADI instructors here who are also DIR compliant?

[boulderjohn]

John, regardless of what you have written, or who you have consorted with to write this article; it's only an article!!!! It's only an opinion and has nothing to do with PADI policy!!!!!!!! Why is this so hard for you to understand?????? You do not write PADI policy. If you did, it would be written in the Standards and not in an article...

It does not need to be added to the standards because it does not violate the standards as they are written now! Why should they change something that is already OK as it is?

PADI headquarters has said repeatedly that it does not violate existing standards as they are now written. You have yet to identify a single way in which it violates standards.

---------- Post added July 3rd, 2013 at 05:32 PM ----------

I am trying to imagine how the conversation would go at PADI headquarters for them to do it the way you seem to want it to. It mist go something like this at an executive meeting:

Executive A: Karl, have you fully reviewed the article that was submitted for publication?

Executive B: Yes. In fact, I fully participated in writing it so that it will fully reflect PADI policy. It is a good article, and I endorse it.

Executive A: So everything in it is within existing standards?

Executive B: Completely. There is no standards violation anywhere. Not even a hint.

Executive A: So there is no need to make any changes?

Executive B: None whatsoever.

Executive A: Well, we're going to have to change the standards anyway.

Executive B: Why on Earth would we need to do that?

Executive A: It seems there's these two guys on ScubaBoard, DCBC and DevonDiver. They say that whenever we publish an article in our official professional journal and assure people that there is nothing in it that violates standards, then it must be a violation of standards unless we rewrite the standards later.

Executive B: But that makes no sense whatsoever.

Executive A: It does to them, and until we make the changes, they are going to fill the Internet with warnings to our instructors telling them that if they do what we tell them to do in the profresional journal, and there is nothing in the standards it violates, then it must be a standards violation, and our people will be afraid to do what we tell them to do because they will be afraid we will punish them for it.

Executive B: But if everything is already within the standards, what can we write that would be different?

Executive A: I have no idea.

 

[aprivetera]

I am pretty sure there is a fancy sounding logical fallacy going on here with some smart sounding name in latin. I should have paid more attention in school.

 

[Peter Guy]

OK, I'm now totally confused by all this "standards" stuff. DCBC, Dan, DD, just what PADI standards are wrong or result in teaching bad diving skills? I'd really like to know because I'm starting another Open Water class this coming Monday and I don't want to teach badly if I can possible help it.

DD -- is it your contention that PADI standards REQUIRE the introduction/teaching of various skills (for example, mask clearing or regulator recovery) with the student on their knees or otherwise touching the bottom of the confined water area? And, is it your contention that PADI standards REQUIRE the instructor to evaluate those skills in the same manner (i.e., with the student on their knees or otherwise in contact with the bottom)? Please, I'm confused and would appreciate your expertise here.

Dan -- you wrote

PADI standards are poor because they create a pattern of behavior like this.

OK, what standards create this pattern? And if you don't know what standards, then how can you say the standards are poor? BTW, I agree with you that there are too many instructors who do a "less than acceptable" job of teaching, but is that a standards problem or something else. (Side question, can you identify any scuba teaching agency which requires that ALL students must be taught never to touch the bottom and/or prohibits its instructor corps from ever having a student do a skill while in contact with the bottom?)

Guys, please help me out here. Thank you.

---------- Post added July 3rd, 2013 at 06:09 PM ----------

Just for the sake of everyone being on the same page, here are the concluding sentences from the article referenced (and I do need to reiterate, this was published in PADI's magazine that is used to promote teaching skills to its instructors and even carried the subhead "Training: Teaching Tips").

During discussions on this topic, some instructors have the misconception that this approach violates PADI standards. This isn’t the case. Standards do not usually stipulate precisely how the performance requirements for each skill must be met; they state only what the student must achieve. Instructors are free to use the most effective means they know to meet the standard.

Introducing skills with students neutrally buoyant making light contact with the bottom does not violate PADI Standards. Introducing skills with students kneeling initially, but then having themmove quickly into practice in other position, while neutrally buoyant and while swimming also does not violate PADI standards. Additionally, according to both instructor experience and existing learning theory, both approaches (or a hybrid of them) would be expected to allow skills to transfer to “real world” use faster and more efficiently than “just kneeling” training scenarios.
When a student completes Open Water Diver certification, it means that the student is now a diver who can execute a dive comfortably and safely. Such a diver should be able to swim in horizontal trim with good buoyancy control, and that diver should be able to perform the basic skills taught in the Open Water Diver class fluidly while diving. The skilled instructor carefully plans the instructional steps needed to make sure that the diver has met that goal.​

As all should be able to see (comprehend) from the quoted language, there is NOTHING about standards other than PADI standards are flexible and allow for many varied teaching techniques.

Just for grins I thought I'd add the following list of co-authors:

John Adsit - Boulder, Colorado, USA, Instructor Andy Connor - Auckland, New Zealand, Instructorand Co-Director of Tech Dive NZ Sage Dalton - Boulder, Colorado, USA, CourseDirector and Director of Training, Ocean FirstDivers Joe Desimone - Jamestown, Colorado, USA,Instructor Dr. Lynn Flaherty - Woodinville, Washington,USA, Divemaster James Flenner, PhD - Reno, Nevada, USA,Instructor Marcia Fisk Ong - Phuket, Thailand, Instructorand Managing Director of Gekko Scuba DiversCo. Ltd. Jim Garin - Knoxville, Tennessee, USA,Instructor David Herbert - Southern Oregon, USA,Instructor H. Kelly Levendorf - Fort Lauderdale, Florida,USA, Instructor Dr. Sam Miller III - Southern California, USA,Instructor Peter Rothschild - Woodinville, Washington,USA, Instructor Rob Turner - Rotterdam, Netherlands, Instructor George Watson - Nederland, Colorado, USA,Instructor Karl Shreeves - Technical Development Executive,​

PADI Worldwide

 

[DevonDiver]

DD -- is it your contention that PADI standards REQUIRE the introduction/teaching of various skills (for example, mask clearing or regulator recovery) with the student on their knees or otherwise touching the bottom of the confined water area? And, is it your contention that PADI standards REQUIRE the instructor to evaluate those skills in the same manner (i.e., with the student on their knees or otherwise in contact with the bottom)? Please, I'm confused and would appreciate your expertise here.

Pete, I don't want to drag this thread off topic really, but here's what I understand and what I referenced, cited and supported in the other thread:

1) PADI standards require skills to be introduced in a specific order. It is a breach of those standards to introduce skills prior to the module/session in which they are designated.

2) Neutral buoyancy; including LPI inflate/deflate, fin pivot and hover, are designated skills, with a designated point of introduction.

3) Certain skills use descriptors as guidance. Some of the skills introduced before neutral buoyancy is taught use the descriptor "on the bottom".

4) The descriptor "on the bottom" may be open to interpretation. It is routinely interpreted as "kneeling" by instructors. It is alleged that PADI do not exclude a definition of "near the bottom, in neutral buoyancy".

5) PADI materials, both instructor and student, contain a plethora of written and photo media showing the conduct of classes in a kneeling position. This supports an interpretation of "on the bottom" as "kneeling".

6) The quarterly PADI pro magazine 'Underwater Journal' does not constitute Standards. A specific disclaimer is given to that effect in the magazine. Instructors in training are given clear direction on where they should seek communication on Standards issues and changes. That direction is not in the quarterly magazine articles. However, the magazine does contain a specific area, which is a copy of the 'Training Bulletin" which does reflect a communication of standards changes.

7) The article written by John et al, appears in the Journal, but has not been supported by any formal standards changes or other communication through the 'Training Bulletin'. Nor has it been reflected in any re-issue of the PADI Instructor Manual (there have been 3 annual re-issues since the article was published).

8) Evaluation of skills is limited strictly to the stated (in Standards) Performance Standard required of a given skill. Instructors are cautioned not to amend those Performance Standards nor deviate from them. This is taught on IDC, stated in IDC materials, and forms a specific section in the PADI Professionals Membership Agreement.

9) PADI state, in varied instructor media, that the foundations of their system are to ensure a consistent global application of standards. The aim being that a given course is run to equal standards by any instructor, anywhere in the world. This may be interpreted as further guidance not to deviate from written standards and stated aims/goals/intentions of the course materials. It certainly seems at odds with John's assertion that instructors are encouraged/approved to seek local/individual approval from PADI contacts in order to produce highly individualized and 'non-standard' training courses.

 

[Peter Guy]

DD Thank you. I take it from what you just wrote that it is NOT your contention that PADI Standards REQUIRE skills to be demonstrated, learned and evaluated with either the student or the instructor "on the knees."

However, it is certainly implied that such skills are to be, at the least, introduced while "on the knees."

Is that a fair summary?

 

[DCBC]

It does not need to be added to the standards because it does not violate the standards as they are written now! Why should they change something that is already OK as it is?

John, I find it difficult why you are talking about methods of instruction that pertain to buoyancy which conform to PADI standards at all??? My comments have been to address the OP's comment "Its not so much about staying within standards but more about exceeding the standards..."

Since you state that procedures you discussed within your article conforms with PADI Standards; what does it have to do with exceeding standards?? Why bring this article up at all? This doesn't seem related to this discussion, but is a continuation of the discussion you and Andy were having on the Mastery thread.

As a PADI Instructor cannot deviate from Standards, if the OP wishes to discuss exceeding Standards, PADI can't really be a big part of the discussion at all.
What Peter and I were discussing was how much of the PADI OW program could conform with a GUE Rec 1 program. Certainly some training is similar, but can not be entirely the same.

A NAUI program could be, as a NAUI Instructor is encouraged to teach past the Standards. A PADI Instructor is prohibited from doing so.

 

[ElGaucho]

The good thing about discussions like this is that eventually they do arrive to useful conclusions, for example that nowhere in the standards is the bad form of teaching on the knees specified. This is true. But also, some of you are trying to take it further; some of you go as far as implying there is no official PADI posture on teaching on your knees. Well people, just look at the videos. And yes, per standards, students ARE REQUIRED to watch the videos. And those videos get it wrong on many aspects of diving, showing bad form and lousy technique. The same lousy form and technique Dan criticized some posts ago.

I think it´s fantastic that we want to emphasize that PER STANDARDS PADI does NOT push instructors to be the worst. I agree. And there is a lot of bad form that´s inherited from the CD/IDC process. Complacency, if you might. But there is also a huge portion of PADI induced crap (the videos), as well as a strong push into a system were anyone can teach and the instructor is really no that important (order of skills introduction, no encouragement of going past minimums, etc).

These kind of discussions should open up an organization like PADI to improve. I see a lot of PADI bashing and a lot of PADI defense. I don´t see a lot of instructors that REALLY DO WANT TO IMPROVE THE SYSTEM, uniting into improving this stuff. And YES, IT NEEDS IMPROVEMENT. Stop trying to be smarter smart-asses, because you are not. PADI is wrong in many respects, we all know it. At the same time, there is enough lee-way to actually teach good courses through the PADI system. We just need to unite, stop trying to outsmart eachother on a forum and try to find ways to bring much needed change into the system. We should burn the videos on the stake, and that needs to happen now. Who wants to grab the pitchfork first?

 

[pocky21]

Torch and pitchfork, at the ready!

In my very limited experience - all you have to do is show any diver, not just a student, what good diving really looks like, and if they have any interest at all in improving themselves they will reach out to you (or at least follow you around and imitate you). Why can't we all just be good role models and mentors first, and brand XYZ instructors second? Somebody play that Rodney King clip already!

 

[RJP]

I standby my response to Randy's post. "Its not so much about staying within standards but more about exceeding the standards to the point where a CD or IT looked at the class and question you "WTF are you doing???" kind of scenario."

Unless your CD/IT is of the same mindset... and infact trained you in this fashion.

It pertains to exceeding Standards, not with how much the PADI program can or cannot comply with DIR. PADI Instructors cannot exceed PADI training requirements and must not deviate from the PADI program; as we both know. NAUI Instructors do not operate within the same restrictions, nor do they conform to a paint-by-numbers way of teaching. Obviously Clients have the ability to choose what's best for them.

To quote Ronald Reagan:

"There you go again..."

It's very easy to exceed PADI standards in teaching/certifying OW divers without "getting in trouble" from PADI or anyone else. Two things are required:

1.) Tell prospective students up front "PADI requires X as a minimum standard... but I have a more stringent standard and I will train you to achieve Y in my class."
2.) Work with the student to achieve Y during training.

You may or may not decide to withhold certification based on student's ability to actually achieve "Y" during the course with this mindset. Though, if your goal is to TRAIN them to achieve Y versus merely EXPECT them to achieve Y it will never really be a problem.

The whole discussion about exceeding PADI standards always seems to come from the assumption that doing so is a way to WITHHOLD certification from divers who meet PADI standards but cannot achieve higher standards. (I've yet to meet such a diver.) If you open your mind to the idea that exceeding PADI standards is a way to actually create better divers... it's a whole different discussion.

PADI Instructors cannot exceed PADI training requirements and must not deviate from the PADI program; as we both know. NAUI Instructors do not operate within the same restrictions, nor do they conform to a paint-by-numbers way of teaching.

If you're going to be honest about what "we both know" you'll have to agree that while NAUI instructors may not have to "conform to a paint-by-numbers way of teaching" the fact of the matter is... a great many NAUI instructors do just that.

 

[Tortuga68]

1.) Tell prospective students up front "PADI requires X as a minimum standard... but I have a more stringent standard and I will train you to achieve Y in my class."

You may or may not decide to withhold certification based on student's ability to actually achieve "Y" during the course with this mindset

It's my understanding that you can't refuse to certify a diver that met PADI standards during a PADI course... I think this is what DCBC & DD are on about?