Any PADI instructors here who are also DIR compliant?

[DCBC]

DCBC -- it is my understanding that a NAUI instructor could not teach a class identical to GUE Rec 1 -- at least from the standpoint of gear configuration. I'm not a NAUI instructor and don't have access to NAUI standards (and there are standards, are there not?) but I've been told that ALL students and instructors MUST have a snorkel attached to their mask at all times during an OW class. I know that GUE does NOT have such a requirement. As a PADI instructor I have the discretion as to WHERE the snorkel may be as long as it is in the possession of the diver. Perhaps a minor point, but just one that I happen to know (at least I think I know).

The Student must have a snorkel for the OW portion. There are no equipment configuration requirements, so the snorkel can be carried/stored anywhere where it's accessible. Although GUE does not have any requirement, carrying a snorkel is not prohibited, so nothing in the NAUI program would conflict with GUE Rec 1.

You seem to believe that NAUI's "flexibility" in teaching is a benefit -- and I agree that, in some cases, it is. OTOH, I also believe it may well be detrimental too for I, as someone getting a "NAUI Trained" student will really have no idea what that training may have been. At the very least, when I get a "PADI Trained" student I do have an idea as to what the training was.

With NAUI, every Student (regardless of Instructor) must meet the "Minimum Standards." So like PADI, the Standards (NAUI Minimum Standards) are universal and in-common with all Agency Divers. The difference that you are describing, is how much more knowledge and skill-sets the "NAUI Trained" student may possess. This is an unknown factor that will vary between NAUI Students (because of the individual NAUI Instructor Standards). One may be only trained to the minimum, while another to the academic training of a Divemaster.

Last point -- you seem to believe that the word "exceed" is equivalent to the word "deviate." Since many of us have written over and over again that we, as PADI instructors are encouraged, nay required, to "flesh out" the standards and as a regular matter of course, do so, you may well find that we "exceed" and/or "deviate" from those standards. We do not -- but you are welcome to your own fantasy on this point. Exceeding/expanding (expounding?) on the "standards" is what teaching is all about -- but such is not necessarily (!) deviating from those standards.

Exceeding requirements in my mind equates to a new knowledge base not covered in the Standards. For example, a requirement on the part of the Instructor to increase the minimum swimming ability of his students as a result of more demanding local diving environment. This is not "fleshing-out, or expounding" on the Standards. Rather it is a change to what is required for certification, in-consideration of where the newly certified Diver will dive in an unsupervised manner.

Another example would be an Instructor's ability to increase confidence through BB, station breathing, or blackout. Exercises that will increase the Diver's ability to deal with anxiety. NAUI considers additions to the program like this to fall under "academic freedom." A NAUI Instructor is not limited to what he teaches in what session, in what order, it's up to the Instructor in-consideration of the student and the individual Instructor's teaching approach.

My guess is that ALL agencies prohibit their instructors from "deviating" from standards -- otherwise, could there be such a thing as a "standard?" Granted, as a PADI instructor I may not withhold certification from a student as long as they meet (or exceed!) the standards as written, unlike, I guess, a NAUI instructor, but, honestly, as long as a student can meet (to MY satisfaction) the standards as written under the conditions in which we dive, I'm good with that.

Yes, a NAUI Instructor can withhold certification if either NAUI's or the Instructor's Standards are not met. The "Minimums" are established by NAUI. The certification requirements are established by the Instructor, but the minimums must be met.

Obviously the idea isn't to withhold certification, but to turn out competent divers in-which the Instructor would have no hesitation in certifying. My particular standard (as I have related before) is that the new Diver is competent to dive with any member of my family. To accomplish this, I include underwater rescue into the program. Simply because I wouldn't want anyone diving with one of my sons or wife that had no idea how to help them. This is a personal requirement. Every Diver I certify must satisfy it. PADI does not allow me this freedom.

So is a Diver more competent if he knowns underwater rescue? Some may think that it offers no benefit. The only person's opinion that matters in this case, is the certifying Instructor...

 

[danvolker]

My basic open water NAUI course I had in 1972 had extensive rescue drills, CPR, big swim tests, ditch and don, harassment, etc. Just about everything in my PADI DM course that I needed as a pre-requisite to my Tooka Instructor Card with NASE.... NASE, by the way, does NOT believe in having students kneeling on the bottom for drills

 

[Tortuga68]

Exceeding requirements in my mind equates to a new knowledge base not covered in the Standards

So you wouldn't consider, say, maintaining buoyancy within a certain plus/minus depth, or maintaining trim within plus/minus a certain number of degrees 'exceeding requirements' then?

 

[boulderjohn]

A question for everyone guessing what the PADI rules are: why don't you ask PADI?

I do that all the time.

Just for example, a few years ago in the Instructor to Instructor forum, someone said it was against PADI standards to teach any other alternate air setup than the traditional alternate in the golden triangle. After all, that setup is described in the book, and it is shown in the videos. I wrote to PADI and asked about that. They assured me that the standards do not mention any specific method, and the book descriptions and the videos are not standards. I described for them how I EXCEED STANDARDS by showing the students all the configurations they might encounter, including the long hose and bungied alternate, and teaching them how they are used. PADI's reply was that it sounded like an excellent lesson, and they said I was doing students a real service that way.

 

[Tortuga68]

Yes but they didn't rewrite the standards to say that so you're obviously a moron

 

[danvolker]

Yes but they didn't rewrite the standards to say that so you're obviously a moron

The Internet does not transmit what I assume is your sense of humour.....and I only assume you are trying to be funny with John because I want to give you the benefit of the doubt.....I don't think this was an appropriate comment, written this way..the subject is heated enough without pushing it with poor attempts at needling.

 

[tracydr]

It is actually amazing what students can master, if they have good visual models and they are not told anything is difficult.

In our last class, in the last pool session, I had students attempting (and some succeeding at) clearing their mask while hovering inside a hula hoop!

We also emphasize "buddyness" (embryonic team skills) and communication in our classes.

It seems as though the most difficult thing to get through to new divers is a good kick of any sort, whether it's flutter, mod flutter, or frog. Everybody wants to flex at the hip joint . . .

It is amazing, isn't it? Kids are even more amazing. My husband brought out a mask, regulator, my jet fins and his small bottle that he uses for pool cleaning when the grandkids were here last night. He gave them a quick session on how to breathe, clear, just the basics. I supervised for about an hour as the 12 and 14 year old swam around taking turns monkey diving. I had them frog kicking, going through a hoop, all sorts of fun bouyancy skills, going through hoops made of the vac-hose. They had a blast and they have no idea that they were learning. I'll teach them them mask skills today. They didn't have a BC on and surprisingly they were both skinny enough to be negative and not need any weights, either. They were almost neutral using just their lungs!
They both said they'd like to get certified so if they still want to we'll probably begin an actual class soon and hopefully, they'll have a good start because of the playing that they've been allowed under supervision like this.

---------- Post added July 4th, 2013 at 12:18 PM ----------

Just an observation I made, but during my IE, both examiners made it a point to never touch the bottom. In fact, we were never told to place "students" on their knees by anyone but our CD, and I was not docked on control for allowing "students" to rest in a more fin-pivot like position.

On the flip side, nearly every "instructor" I was under would forcefully command me to plop down and sit pretty - which was a giant PITA for me. Interestingly enough, I was actually pulled aside post-examination and commended for my performance.

I believe the issue rests with a chain of learning that starts from the time you're a student. Your instructor sits on his knees, talks about how buoyancy is such an important but difficult thing to master, buy this class, etc... and this trend continues even past the point of instructor. I've noticed that most instructors simply echo their course director and/or the instructors who came before them - I know hearing a lesson at my shop often sounds like a broken record. I would argue that, if PADI released a standard that required teaching off the bottom due to local conditions (or just because), a large majority of their instructors would reply "well just how am I supposed to do THAT?"

It's kind of a catch 22 - I think the agencies realize a better way is out there - but their hands are tied by what they've already created.

When doing my DM training, i was asked to kneel on my knees all the time and I found that kneeling on my knees was quite difficult, especially if my aluminum tank was getting low or if I was forced to use a longer tank than my normal AL 63.
I can imagine that kneeling on the bottom, especially if the pool or lake is not flat or the student is small, would increase the stress level for some students, which could decrease ability to learn and even cause students to possibly panic, if other factors, such as anxiety about mask clearing or visibility become an issue.
I think teaching with students hovering or in a fin pivot could be less stressful, assuming they are taught the hover or fin pivot as one of the first things. I realize this can be an issue with the PADI pool sessions, since certain things must be taught in order.

---------- Post added July 4th, 2013 at 12:31 PM ----------

Errol Kalayci just told me that he is about to start teaching a GUE Open Water Class ( Rec 1 ) with the first class beginning July 22nd.

While this won't have an IMMEDIATE effect on getting hundreds of PADI instructors in Florida to stop kneeling on top of the delicate marine life with their students at the BHB....I think this better way should get some press !!!

If anyone wants more details, let me know.....

How much will he charge for this class?
I've also noticed that UTD offers and open water track. I wonder what the price is compared to going the more traditional routes? Of course, its really only an option if you happen to live near a UTD center like San Diego, UTD instructor or a GUE instructor, or you're willing to pay to have one come in for a class. Probably not a lot of brand new divers willing to do that, unless they're quite wealthy.

 

[danvolker]

How much will he charge for this class?
I've also noticed that UTD offers and open water track. I wonder what the price is compared to going the more traditional routes? Of course, its really only an option if you happen to live near a UTD center like San Diego, UTD instructor or a GUE instructor, or you're willing to pay to have one come in for a class. Probably not a lot of brand new divers willing to do that, unless they're quite wealthy.

Other agencies charge $395 for Open Water, $395 for advanced open water + $100 for nitrox. GUE divers get all that knowledge essentially, and better skills, for $999 for course.... plus boat, pool and nitrox ($999 is what Errol will charge for the class).

 

[rivers]

Other agencies charge $395 for Open Water, $395 for advanced open water + $100 for nitrox. GUE divers get all that knowledge essentially, and better skills, for $999 for course.... plus boat, pool and nitrox ($999 is what Errol will charge for the class).

And drysuit if in a colder environment

 

[Ste Wart]

Other agencies charge $395 for Open Water, $395 for advanced open water + $100 for nitrox. GUE divers get all that knowledge essentially, and better skills, for $999 for course.... plus boat, pool and nitrox ($999 is what Errol will charge for the class).

GUE registration extra I presume?