Any PADI instructors here who are also DIR compliant?

[danvolker]

GUE registration extra I presume?

I don't know....ask Errol
Errol Kalayci <errol@tdsdivers.com>

 

[Peter Guy]

Truly, not to beat this poor dead horse much longer, but I do want to comment on a point written by DD which, to my mind, evinces a misunderstanding of the notion of "An Early Transition to Neutral Buoyancy."

Given that neutral buoyancy skills are specifically introduced in a progressive manner (LPI operation - fin pivot - hover) over subsequent confined water dives, it is hard to reconcile how an instructor can 'teach students in neutral buoyancy' at an early stage, when they are specifically prohibited from introducing the skills necessary for neutral buoyancy during those stages.

NOTHING in the PADI standards prohibits the instructor from doing demonstrations while neutral and in the water column at any time during a class. Nor is there any thing in the PADI standards which prohibits a student from attempting on her own to be neutral while "swimming" (query, can any scuba diver be said to be "swimming" -- DCBC, care to chime in on that? ) or doing skills. In fact, as was mentioned more than once in my IDCSI course, "discovery learning" is a valid, and important, part of the teaching of scuba diving.

Just as we are taught not to "punish" a horse when it does something it will be trained to do, but has yet to be trained, no scuba student should be "punished" when she does something she will be trained to do but has yet to be trained. In fact, as many have mentioned, if you just don't tell them they can't do it, more often than not the student figures it out on her own. Yes, they see the (crappy) images but they also see, for real, good images and they really do know the difference! DD, since one of the CW 1 requirements is to "Swim with scuba equipment [again, DCBC, is PADI wrong here when it uses the word "swim" while on scuba?] while maintaining control of both directions and depth." While perhaps not "neutral" isn't it sort-of, perhaps, maybe, implied that in order to maintain depth control the student would be, should be, encouraged to be, well, sort of neutral in CW 1 in order to easily maintain depth?

DD, methinks you read both too much (and perhaps too little!) into the various publications in order to make your (perhaps) invalid points.

------------------------------------------

I was over at a friend's house (he is a NAUI CD) and looked at the NAUI Open Water Book. The following is just a little of what I found:



As I went through the book, my friend and I both figured that somehow pictures of PADI instructors were published by mistake.

 

[beanojones]

PADI's stipulation that skills may not be introduced before the designated training session

Wait, PADI has this standard? Or stipulation? (If it's there I am sure you can quote it.)

---------- Post added July 4th, 2013 at 10:03 PM ----------

Other agencies charge $395 for Open Water, $395 for advanced open water + $100 for nitrox. GUE divers get all that knowledge essentially, and better skills, for $999 for course.... plus boat, pool and nitrox ($999 is what Errol will charge for the class).

I'll hesitate to agree with that.

We went over a video of what kind of divers a GUE OW course turns out a awhile back, and I was pretty shocked at what a time-wasting and (relatively speaking) sloppy course the instructor put together, and what (relatively speaking) sloppy divers resulted from it.

Granted I hold my students to a higher standard than instructors around me do, but still. That amount of time to make divers is just a disservice to paying customers.

 

[Scott]

Wait, PADI has this standard? Or stipulation? (If it's there I am sure you can quote it.)

I suspect DD is referring to this standard.
Conduct Confined Water Dives in sequence and do not shift skills from one confined water dive to another.

 

[beanojones]

That has to do with shifting the evaluation of the skills. Evaluation is where we stop if they cannot do it, and can go no further. I really think many people forget the entire foundation on performance based learning. We pass them when they can do things, and HOLD THEM BACK WHEN THEY CANNOT*, including withholding certification and/or stopping training if the logistics work out such. That's the entire point of evaluation, and performance based learning.

If it meant that we could not teach/introduce things ahead of time we could not take students "Diving Today" which introduces a huge number of Open Water skills before they are covered in CW. And we can take students "Diving Today".

We just do not evaluate those OW skills, and by evaluate we mean we do not prevent them from going forward if they cannot do them at that time.

(We also introduce/talk about most skills in the classroom, but we do not evaluate them there either. Certainly talking about skills in the classroom is not a standards violation.)

* I am more than happy to say up front that a certain real percentage of the people who start OW with me will not get certified, because performance based learning. They cannot perform they are not certified. Diving's not for everyone. I get paid for my time teaching, not for issuing their certification.

 

[DCBC]

So you wouldn't consider, say, maintaining buoyancy within a certain plus/minus depth, or maintaining trim within plus/minus a certain number of degrees 'exceeding requirements' then?

I would expect that good buoyancy control would be a requirement. I utilize an exercise in confined water with a series of hoops that the Students negotiate through at different depths. One hoop requires the removal of equipment to pass through the restricted space. This ends-up being a fun exercise (dubbed the Gauntlet), that requires good buoyancy control. This is a requirement in my program before a student can go to OW.

As far as PADI's requirements are concerned, I couldn't say other than reading the discussion in the Mastery thread that seems to be continued here. I imagine that most Instructors want to prepare their Students in the best way they can regardless of which training Agency they teach for. Certainly the Standards of the Agency can limit the Instructor.

I left PADI because I required my students to be better prepared than I could prepare them within the confines of the PADI program. This was my experience, but I can appreciate that different Instructors teach in different conditions and in different ways. Many may teach outside the Standards and think (like I did) that everything is fine; it turned-out that it wasn't. I was asked by PADI HQ not to exceed Standards; I left.

Regardless of what you call it. A PADI Instructor cannot change the teaching order, or the training Standards. If instructors feel they are "exceeding standards" by talking about equipment configuration, so be it. They are in-fact restricted whether they realize this or not (perhaps they just don't want to admit to their restrictions). Either way, it is what it is. We each must choose our own path...


---------- Post added July 5th, 2013 at 03:08 AM ----------

...query, can any scuba diver be said to be "swimming" -- DCBC, care to chime in on that? ) or doing skills. ..."Swim with scuba equipment [again, DCBC, is PADI wrong here when it uses the word "swim" while on scuba?]

Peter, I think that you can swim (unaided), swim with a flutter-board (an aid), swim with FMS (an aid), or swim with SCUBA (an aid). I don't however believe that it's reasonable (as far as safety is concerned) to place a nonswimmer (who requires an aid to prevent drowning) in deep ocean water with a swimming aid. I wouldn't do that with my children before they knew how to swim; why would I condone such practice with an adult? You're an attorney, don't you think the Courts would determine such behavour on the part of a SCUBA Instructor negligent?

 

[Tortuga68]

The Internet does not transmit what I assume is your sense of humour.....and I only assume you are trying to be funny with John because I want to give you the benefit of the doubt.....I don't think this was an appropriate comment, written this way..the subject is heated enough without pushing it with poor attempts at needling.

Since it wasn't directed at you I consider your opinion irrelevant. Feel fee to report the post if you like

 

[danvolker]

Peter, how does it feel to have BeanoJones "with you" in your world view ?

 

[beanojones]

Peter, how does it feel to have BeanoJones "with you" in your world view ?

How does it feel to worry about who says what instead of what is said?

What's that about small minds talk about people etc.? If you are comfortable being small, then you are. It does not shine a good light on you, but trolling at least seems to be something you are good at, so have at it!

Win those small battles!

 

[boulderjohn]

I left PADI because I required my students to be better prepared than I could prepare them within the confines of the PADI program. This was my experience, but I can appreciate that different Instructors teach in different conditions and in different ways. Many may teach outside the Standards and think (like I did) that everything is fine; it turned-out that it wasn't. I was asked by PADI HQ not to exceed Standards; I left.

Just a side note for the benefit of those who do not read your weekly attacks:

That was 25 years ago, just before PADI dramatically changed its instructional philosophy to one based on the theory of mastery learning as originally defined by Benjamin Bloom. Much of that original disagreement (time spent on task) has no meaning in today's instructional environment.