Any PADI instructors here who are also DIR compliant?

[beanojones]

This is allegedly being revised at present, and we have been informed to expect revisions to the OW course later this year...

Including the area rep teasing everyone (but me apparently) when he said that 'you are hardly teaching or entertaining students by having them kneel in a pool while they wait to do skills'.

 

[DevonDiver]

Including the area rep teasing everyone (but me apparently) when he said that 'you are hardly teaching or entertaining students by having them kneel in a pool while they wait to do skills'.

To which my reply would have been; "you [PADI] are hardly teaching or advising instructors by publishing materials full of photos showing classes kneeling in a pool"!!!

 

[beanojones]

Have you ever actually seen pictures of people doing skills horizontal?

There's a reason for that, and it is not because that's the way to do skills, but that that's the way to pose people for pictures and videos.

 

[DevonDiver]

Have you ever actually seen pictures of people doing skills horizontal?

There's a reason for that, and it is not because that's the way to do skills, but that that's the way to pose people for pictures and videos.

If people are doing horizontal/neutral buoyancy training.... and someone takes a photo of them.... just saying... (just saying you're grasping at nonsense straws).

...and yes, I've seen plenty of pictures of people doing skills horizontal... just not in a PADI manual...

 

[boulderjohn]

According to Andy's interpretation, the physical position students are in when they learn skills is itself a skill. Since kneeling on the pool floor is never mentioned in the standards, according to Andy's tortured logic, we are exceeding standards if we teach students to kneel while doing skills. After all, we are teaching a "skill" that is not mentioned in the standards.

We are not teaching the fin pivot, which, BTW, is not even part of the skills taught any more. We are putting students in a horizontal position with a little air in the BCD while they learn their skills. That's it. I cannot believe the lengths you are going to in your desperate attempt to keep people from doing this.

Just to repeat--those of us who do this have contacted PADI and been assured that it is OK. I have quoted PADI saying it is OK. I have offered to send you the email that says it is OK. PADI also suggested that anyone with doubts should contact their local reps or the main office. So, for those of you PADI instructors out there who have doubts, you can believe the people who contacted PADI, you can contact PADI and believe them yourself, or you can continue to believe the tortured logic of a couple of guys who have no official capacity whatsoever. Your call.

 

[DevonDiver]

According to Andy's interpretation, the physical position students are in when they learn skills is itself a skill. Since kneeling on the pool floor is never mentioned in the standards, according to Andy's tortured logic, we are exceeding standards if we teach students to kneel while doing skills. After all, we are teaching a "skill" that is not mentioned in the standards.

If kneeling were a skill, it would have a designated point of inclusion... as well as an attached performance standard. PADI would list it as a skill.

Fin Pivot and Hover/Neutral Bouyancy have both of those. They are defined and stated AS SKILLS... with performance requirements...and with clearly stated points of inclusion in the syllabus.

I see nothing tortured whatsoever in that. I also fail to understand your aggressive stance in this debate... it seems out of character for you John.

Just to repeat--those of us who do this have contacted PADI and been assured that it is OK. I have quoted PADI saying it is OK.

As mentioned, why would an instructor contact PADI for clarification, when they are already directed to the 'Guide for Teaching' that exists as a means for clarifying teaching-related issues? That is the document's purpose and premise... to guide on teaching issues.

PADI can informally 'OK' anything they want... but the issue remains that their guidance contradicts their own standards and the published 'guidance' provided in their own manuals. As instructors-in-training, on IDC, we are specifically warned against the consequences of breaching those standards. One consequence is that breaching standard constitutes divergence from the stated syllabus...thus turning the instructor into a syllabus 'author'. Such a transition opens the instructor to full liability for that syllabus. PADI's informal "OK" does nothing to change that scenario... or protect the instructor from liability.

And.... AGAIN.... I am trying to contribute to a debate that explains WHY there is a global trend for PADI instructors to teach with a 'late transition to neutral buoyancy'. I am happy to accept your assertion that reliance upon a global instructor population 'calling PADI to seek clarification or approval for actions that otherwise oppose the standards and guidance provided in formal instructional materials' is a probably cause for that trend...

You might have best buddies in your local PADI HQ.... but most instructors don't... likewise... many have to communicate internationally, across borders, and from remote locations... in order to communicate with PADI. That is why they use the published and proper instructional materials... the Instructor Manual... The Guide To Teaching... and the Quarterly Member Update... as a first (and sometimes/often only) direction for the conduct of their courses. Ironically.. that's exactly what they were directed to do on IDC too...

you can continue to believe the tortured logic of a couple of guys who have no official capacity whatsoever. Your call.

John, it's a debate... not a 'campaign'. I'm not motivated to convince anyone of anything. Neither am I resorting to personal attacks, nor getting 'hot under the collar' in this debate.

It's not under dispute that a large number (a large majority?) of PADI instructors teach 'from the knees'. I suggest that PADI's standards and materials are responsible for this. I have analyized, quoted and referenced the specific standards and references that I feel are applicable to that case.

My 'official capacity' is irrelevant. Likewise, my logic is hardly 'tortured'... indeed, I am merely presenting what I believe to be a popular (perhaps justifiable) interpretation of black-and-white standards. I do so purely in an attempt to explain a trend... to explain an understood and accepted situation..

 

[TSandM]

Andy, the only thing I can come up with is that you are trying to make sure that no student who reads this thread would ever select a PADI class. I cannot think of any other reason why you are SO adamant about your analysis of what the standards say, and what they permit us to do.

It will be better when the written materials are changed. But I know from Peter's conversations with PADI HQ (and he has them frequently) and my observation of his conversations with the regional PADI rep and his CD, that what we are doing is not only legal, but viewed favorably.

 

[danvolker]

Irrespective of "standards", I have to say that the best local instructor I know of is Jeff at the Riviera Beach Force E.....While he is PADI, he teaches horizontal, and has an amazing ability to figure out what the issues his divers have with learning a skill, and instantly figuring out how to "fix" them...sort of a "RainMan" for instructing. I say this as one more example of the REAL ISSUE being the Instructor...not the agency.... I don't know how Jeff deals with the PADI standards, but if you watch one of his classes at the BHB, you swim away thinking about it with the same kind of reverence you might have, after seeing Bob Sherwood ( GUE Instructor) with a group of perfect students.....And Jeff does this with the normal people that sign up for instruction through the shop--this is not some top 1% that wants to be the best....Jeff just "connects" and really gets the job done. Someone should ask him how he deals with thre Standards issue.

 

[Hawkwood]

....While he is PADI, he teaches horizontal....

You write this as if the two are mutually exclusive.

 

[DevonDiver]

Andy, the only thing I can come up with is that you are trying to make sure that no student who reads this thread would ever select a PADI class.

Why would I do that, when I am a PADI instructor?

Besides, I don't think that a transparent discussion about PADI standards should be discouraging to any student. We've already shown that PADI is addressing the issue - modernizing..evolving. Likewise, the qualities of globally consistent standards and contentious syllabus-following instructors are surely positive selling points for an agency.

I cannot think of any other reason why you are SO adamant about your analysis of what the standards say, and what they permit us to do.

Because that's how I've seen it interpreted by the vast majority of instructors I know. It's also how I was instructed to interpret the standards on my IDC.

I've also tried to provide a simple analysis on black-and-white text - rather than justify an alternative interpretation based upon intangible telephone calls.

It will be better when the written materials are changed. But I know from Peter's conversations with PADI HQ (and he has them frequently) and my observation of his conversations with the regional PADI rep and his CD, that what we are doing is not only legal, but viewed favorably.

I don't doubt there has been a change in PADI policy. I haven't denied that. I have merely attempted to explain why historically, the vast majority of standards-abiding PADI instructors have adopted a late transition to neutral buoyancy.

I'd also point out that 'viewing favorably' doesn't amount to a change of policy. As mentioned, a true policy change would be (will be?) reflected in a concise and clear amendment to the standards that direct and guide instructors.

I've also pointed out that instructor liability has a bearing on the matter. PADI may 'view favorably' a change in practice, but as PADI itself states:

"Instructional systems provide legal protection for the instructor. When using an instructional system, the burden of proof in terms of educational validity and training adequacy shifts from you to the program designers. For risk management purposes, it’s important to use the system as prescribed. Deviating from a proven system will cause you to have to defend your actions and establish yourself as an instructional design authority. Instructional systems ensure that all course material and important objectives are covered in a proper sequence."
PADI Course Director Manual, Instructor Development Course Curriculum, Learning Instruction and the PADI System.

PADI standards define that instructional system. They also provide the proper sequence for the introduction of material and objectives. As I have referenced, current and previous editions of the PADI Instructor Manual have included buoyancy control skills within the prescribed sequence - thus they are part of the instructional system.

I don't think it matters what you, John, people on the phone at PADI HQ or myself think of this interpretation. What matters is how the majority...or even a minority, of PADI instructors have interpreted it. The clear trend for 'teaching from the knees' and a 'late transition to neutral buoyancy' seem to indicate exactly how many/most have interpreted the directions they are/have been given.

The PADI Guide to Teaching certainly doesn't dispel that notion, as it refers specifically to several confined water skills being taught. For instance:

Nor do the images consistently displayed in various PADI materials, up to and including the Tech Deep materials. In PADI's own words "Instructional systems are efficient.... Divers know what to expect, thus come better prepared to participate in confined water and open water dives".

This is what they are led to expect...

From Open Water Confined:

and PADI Open Water Dives (PADI promo video):

Right through to technical diving (TecRec/Tech Deep student video):

Yes...technical students being taught valve drills... kneeling in a pool (students are shown kneeling throughout the video).... and yes, the instructor IS standing...

Even in the PEAK PERFORMANCE BUOYANCY video, the instructor is shown kneeling whilst teaching the student to hover....

Or in the newly released Tec40CCR student manual:

And even the Tec60CCR student manual:

(any bets on kneeling pool skills in the sidemount manuals when they are released later this year?)

I just think it's obtuse to blame instructors for 'misinterpreting' the directions they were given.... and a message/policy that is hammered home in every form of media and manual throughout the entire instructional syllabus.

To change policy in the light of the 'Transition to Neutral Buoyancy' article is one thing... to apply some form of 'revisionist' approach to the notion... and blame instructors for 'misinterpreting' or 'failing to seek clarification' on those standards is, quite frankly insulting.. It wasn't "what PADI were thinking all along".... it's what they're thinking now.... and still considering putting onto paper and into standards...