Any PADI instructors here who are also DIR compliant?

[Ste Wart]

Ste Wart,
There are litterally many dozens of PADI instructors from out of our area, doing exactly what you see in the video, every month. There are no scuba police..there is no way to influence these instructors, EXCEPT by PADI....If PADI wants to do more than kiss babies and give lip service to nonsense lines like 'take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but bubbles' ( nonsense because they do NOTHING to enforce this.....it is like a US President in an election year promising to lower taxes---it is a lie that sounds good)

PADI needs to step up.... Thanks to JOhn, I am now peaking to PADI HQ.
MAybe they will do the right thing.....I hope so!

In that case you have a lot of idiots teaching where you live. Again this is not a PADI problem. PADI is diving organisation, it is there to provide standards for teaching, issue certifications and provide teaching materials. That is what PADI actually does. When it come to the environment PADI expects, as does any other agency, that you respect the underwater environment.

I have my IANTD standards in front of me and they have no standards against kneeling on coral. I suspect no other agency does either. Stop blaming PADI for the actions of fools.

 

[boulderjohn]

Please forward this to me John. Better still, cut and paste it here for all to see. I will be sure to comment.

To quote the PADI Instructor Agreement: "I also will not deviate from the applicable standards when representing myself as a PADI Member." What does not deviate from the applicable standards mean to you? Perhaps you might reread the noted thread I referenced to Dan as well. You seem to have forgotten...

I really feel like crying. You have had this answered countless times over the years. It gets so very, very old correcting your nonsense.

You have been given key quotes from the article from Drew Richardson that is required reading for all instructors, the article that says that the standards are the bare bones of instruction, and it is the instructor's job to flesh it out. You ignore that.

In reference to the topic at hand, you have been shown that there is nothing in the standards requiring instruction on the knees, despite your (and DevonDiver's) ridiculous assertion to the contrary. When I offered to send anyone on the thread the direct words of PADI headquarters saying in so many words that the standards allow neutral, mid-water instruction, you chose not to ask for them. Instead you repeat the absurd claim here. I will send it to you now if you ask.

The PADI standards are very carefully written to allow a variety of approaches. For example, students are to learn how to secure an alternate air source for use in OOA emergencies. The standards do not specify what that source must look like or how it is to be secured. Many of the standards allow that sort of leeway.

Finally, you keep going back to the claim that we cannot fail a student who does not perform adequately on a test of something that is not part of the standards. That is technically correct, but it does not mean we cannot teach things in addition to the standards (as Dr. Richardson plainly said we should), and there are ways to make sure they learn it outside of a formal test. When I give students my handout on gas management and discuss it with them, I don't need to give them a multiple choice test to see that they understand. When I do local OW dives and we do the required dive planning with the students, we adjust for altitude. I don't need to give them a multiple choice test for that. When Peter takes students into Puget Sound, he has no choice but to discuss tides with them, and he does. We can teach all sorts of stuff, and our students can learn it, without giving them a formal test.

That, in fact, makes the stuff we add no different from the rest of the instruction. We don't "fail" anyone for not meeting the standards--we just keep teaching them until they do.

None of that is "deviating from the standards," and I have absolutely cleared everything I have said with PADI, much of it while publishing the article you seem to want to ignore.

So what is "deviating from the standards"? As I said above, many of the standards have wording that allows a variety of approaches, but some have specifics built in. Students have to hover for 30 seconds. That is pretty specific. If I pass them after they have hovered for 22 seconds, I have deviated from the standards, and it is a violation. In the OW, I have to do certain specific skills on each of OW dives 2, 3, and 4. If I change when I do those specific skills, I have deviated from standards. The CESA must be performed according to very specific rules. The reason for that is the workshop roughly 20 years ago that found that CESA instruction was the cause of most instruction-related accidents. Very strict procedures were set in place as a result of that, and I must follow those rules. I cannot follow the Belgian system of doing a deep CESA with the regulator out of the mouth, the system that is causing so very many injuries there. When standard language is specific in what I must do, then I cannot deviate from it. Otherwise, I have a lot of leeway.

PADI also has standards for its members. One of them prevents me from publicly disparaging another agency the way you do. If I wanted to rip NAUI or CMAS apart at the seams in these forums (and I don't), it would be a violation of PADI standards. Apparently NAUI and CMAS do not have such a standard for their members.

Or do they?

 

[danvolker]

In that case you have a lot of idiots teaching where you live. Again this is not a PADI problem. PADI is diving organisation, it is there to provide standards for teaching, issue certifications and provide teaching materials. That is what PADI actually does. When it come to the environment PADI expects, as does any other agency, that you respect the underwater environment.

I have my IANTD standards in front of me and they have no standards against kneeling on coral. I suspect no other agency does either. Stop blaming PADI for the actions of fools.

It is not the local shops( not Force E, not Pura Vida, not JASA)....they all are environmentally careful with their classes when run at the BHB.
We get shops from Orlando, Jacksonvile, North Florida, Ga, anywhere you can drive from.
I see this as QUALITY CONTROL for Instructors....If Scubapro found they had a bunch of bad regulators, they would be recalled.
PADI should now know it has a bunch of BAD Instructors ( the ones destroying the environment) and there needs to be the equivalent of a "Recall"..... Maybe they just need to threaten loss of Instructor card with 3 strikes...maybe big fines ( PADI likes money ).....But it is a PADI problem, and your refusal to believe it is, makes you part of the problem, unless you can think of a better solution ( I am all ears!!!

 

[Ste Wart]

It is not the local shops( not Force E, not Pura Vida, not JASA)....they all are environmentally careful with their classes when run at the BHB.
We get shops from Orlando, Jacksonvile, North Florida, Ga, anywhere you can drive from.
I see this as QUALITY CONTROL for Instructors....If Scubapro found they had a bunch of bad regulators, they would be recalled.
PADI should now know it has a bunch of BAD Instructors ( the ones destroying the environment) and there needs to be the equivalent of a "Recall"..... Maybe they just need to threaten loss of Instructor card with 3 strikes...maybe big fines ( PADI likes money ).....But it is a PADI problem, and your refusal to believe it is, makes you part of the problem, unless you can think of a better solution ( I am all ears!!!

Most of the human race is actively destroying the environment. What's your point?

 

[NW Dive Dawg]

Ok.... John, Peter, Ste Wart.... or any one of you currently active PADI instructors..... will you please do me a big favor take a look at your most currently updated Instructor Manual and let me know if the following information has changed.... or if it is still there… as-is. I know that some folks might hate to have a fact get in the way of a good argument, but this could be an interesting contribution to this discussion.

I just pulled out my 2006 Digital Instructor Manual to take a look at the PADI standards and procedures that applied when I was active. Under the General Standards and Procedures Chapter, Page 26, Questions and Answers..... Q & A No. 6.... the following is cut and pasted from the PADI Instructor Manual and reads exactly as follows:

Question 6: What should an instructor do if he chooses to teach buddy breathing and receives a referred Open Water Diver course student who has not had buddy breathing training and practice in confined water?

Answer 6: Because standards require an instructor to complete an assessment prior to open water training dives for referred student divers, the instructor could teach the skill in confined water in addition to assessing other skills. When the student has mastered buddy breathing, the student may progress to open water training.

Anyway, unless I am mistaken, that single word “chooses” is a very important fact to be considered in this eternal debate.

Thanks.

 

[Scott]

Hasn't changed, its been removed. Buddy Breathing was recently (2009,2010?) removed from the OW curriculum.

 

[boulderjohn]

In addition, back when that was written, buddy breathing was optional. To my knowledge, it was the only standard that was optional. As Scott said, it is no longer an option.

 

[Ste Wart]

The only snag in removing Buddy Breathing completley is that now DM's have not necessarily learned how to do the skill before performing the Equipment Exchange. So effectively you end up teaching an OW skill to DM candidate.

 

[DCBC]

I really feel like crying. You have had this answered countless times over the years. It gets so very, very old correcting your nonsense.

Where's the e-mail John? I never received it and I don't see it posted? You think that you have corrected me and DevonDiver (a current PADI professional Instructor), but your arguments seem invalid to us. You read an article and perhaps speak to the author (?) and suggest that this is sufficient to override the specific Standards and Agreements between a PADI Instructor and the PADI Corporation. Do you have any idea how foolish that sounds? You suggest that you've received something that will clarify matters, but you fail to come across with the information...

You have been given key quotes from the article from Drew Richardson that is required reading for all instructors, the article that says that the standards are the bare bones of instruction, and it is the instructor's job to flesh it out. You ignore that.

And you fail to understand that ANYONE can write an article and it means NOTHING. Articles are not Standards! Unless the Standards indicate otherwise, it's meaningless. What about that don't you understand???

Perhaps PADI is changing direction. If so, there will be no one happier than I. Until this is reflected in actual changes, it's only a potential future change which may or may not occur. This discussion is about the now, not what might be...

PADI knows how to change policy. It's great that articles are being written and people are hopeful, but to-date PADI has chosen not to affect change and their Standards and instructions are what they are: no deviation from standards is authorized.

In reference to the topic at hand, you have been shown that there is nothing in the standards requiring instruction on the knees, despite your (and DevonDiver's) ridiculous assertion to the contrary. When I offered to send anyone on the thread the direct words of PADI headquarters saying in so many words that the standards allow neutral, mid-water instruction, you chose not to ask for them. Instead you repeat the absurd claim here. I will send it to you now if you ask.

I have asked. BTW, this discussion is not about how PADI Instructors teach buoyancy. I haven't discussed anything on this topic. Again you accuse me of something that's a figment of your imagination. This is a bee in your bonnet that you were unable to successfully argue with DevonDiver and are bringing it up here. I have no idea why.

PADI also has standards for its members. One of them prevents me from publicly disparaging another agency the way you do. If I wanted to rip NAUI or CMAS apart at the seams in these forums (and I don't), it would be a violation of PADI standards. Apparently NAUI and CMAS do not have such a standard for their members. Or do they?

Now I'm disparaging PADI by quoting the PADI Instructor's Agreement??? Any change or modification to the PADI program is a deviation. Perhaps you have a different definition of the word deviate. If so, I'd be interested in knowing what it is.

 

[DevonDiver]

Now I'm disparaging PADI by quoting the PADI Instructor's Agreement??? Any change or modification to the PADI program is a deviation. Perhaps you have a different definition of the word deviate. If so, I'd be interested in knowing what it is.

Quite to the contrary, rather than disparaging the PADI system, I believe the argument strengthens and supports it. Most divers would be reassured to know that a robust system of clear standards do exist, globally instituted, governing the tuition of PADI courses and ensuring parity in their provision.

I think that any allegation that PADI standards were sufficiently vacant, or so easily misinterpreted, that they could be drastically amended by individuals on the basis of a non-official article... or written on the back of a match-box... or whatever....is incredibly disparaging to PADI.

There's many things I disagree with in the PADI system. That's to be expected from disparate individuals of vary backgrounds and circumstances whenever global standards are applied. One thing I do find admirable is that the system is universal, consistently applied and clearly stated. I'm confused that John would try to have us believe otherwise... and far from convinced that PADI staff would try to undermine that consistency of application through claims that unofficial articles they wrote were able to over-ride organizational standards.