Any PADI instructors here who are also DIR compliant?

[Ste Wart]

Mandated--directed to do something...in this case:

• An Agency such as PADI has what they call "Standards"....
• In the standards, the instructors perform the drills with the students and instructors constantly coming in contact with the bottom--in fact, they are directed to do this....( if some instructor can show that PADI would allow a open water class to have zero contact with the bottom like a GUE Fundies class, please hop in here and provide the proof of this)
• PADI apparently has absolutely no concern for WHERE it's instructors will sit or stand or walk on the bottom...this is apparently NOT in the Standards....meaning this trampling behavior is perfectly OK on a delicate Hydroid area full of sea horses, nudibranchs, octopus, frog fish, and dozens of other creatures divers travel thousands of miles to see.....PADI apparently does not feel any regulation on this environmental awareness is relevant to making money or to instruction...or to PADI's ads touting their ENVIRONMENTAL AWARENESS ( which gets them market share for sales).
• PADI instructors apparently don't really care that much when they see destructive environmental behaviors by other PADI instructors--so there has been no reporting of this, or no attempt to CHANGE padi "standards".

Dan, you are wrong. One of the marking criteria for the I.E is that instructor candidates demonstrate 'Environmental Awareness' when positioning students. This includes, but is not limited to, having students kneel on the bottom, or using a permanent line that may have hydroids on it. You are required by PADI to assess any area that you may use to kneel with your students. Whether or not you should do this as an instructor is a different topic, but I am self confessed 'kneeler' and I didn't look for the first piece of coral to kneel on. I always choose a flat sandy bottom or did skills mid-water.

---------------------------

On a side note if there are is a place in the world that is 'full of seahorses' pleases let me know where it is as I'll take the camera

 

[DCBC]

We know why DCBC keeps repeating things he absolutely knows are not true. What is your rationale?

What do you know John?

 

[danvolker]

Dan, you are wrong. One of the marking criteria for the I.E is that instructor candidates demonstrate 'Environmental Awareness' when positioning students. This includes, but is not limited to, having students kneel on the bottom, or using a permanent line that may have hydroids on it. You are required by PADI to assess any area that you may use to kneel with your students.

Ste Wart.... I am not talking about a line with hydroids.... I am talking about a bottom that goes for hundreds of yards, and is covered with delicate life living in what can be best described as a Hydroid Forest.

If there is any function or meaning to PADI standards--if they are not a complete and utter joke...then WHY have we not had MANY PADI instructors calling up PADI and complaining that Standards are being violated--by PADI instructors that are NOT exercising good judgement in where they are kneeling on the bottom--it is the same in this BHB Marine Park area--in the concentration of life issue, as it would be over the top of a coral reef. It is NOTHING like dead/devoid of life, sand.

My proof is that there has been no reaction from PADI about the environmentally destructive teaching behaviors.....
This should indicate that PADI does not care about the Environment.

On a side note if there are is a place in the world that is 'full of seahorses' pleases let me know where it is as I'll take the camera

There are sea horses at the BHB pretty much all the time....some days you might only see one or two...other days you might see a dozen....you "do" need to know how to see them--they hide in plain sight with amazing skill.....or, you need one of our local macro photographers or macro hunters as a guide

---------- Post added July 2nd, 2013 at 01:23 PM ----------

Let me showcase the hydroid forest from a wide angle view...I have tons of still footage of small cross sections of this, from all the nudibranch and octopus photography Sandra does...

Watch this [video=youtube_share;dgdabfvr2B0]http://youtu.be/dgdabfvr2B0[/video]
When it begins, you see the hydroid forest areas immediately to the right...and covering much of the bottom....
As I scooter across the expanse, you see lots more hydroid areas... In the distance, you see a PADI class, standing and walking on the bottom in the middle of the hydroid areas...they are not all directly on the dense parts of the hydroids, but several of the students do land on top of the dense canopies often in this class. Directly under this class, is a place you would often find 3 or 4 macro photographers, shooting mantis shrimp, octopus, nudibranchs, and frog fish. On this day, you would have to hope any of this marine life was able to avoid being physically crushed.

Apparently, PADI thinks....(PADI instructors whose JOB it is to be sensitive to things critically important to PADI--they are the eyes and ears that would allow PADI to think) PADI thinks that it is just fine to have classes trampling these hydroid forests.

So I am conflicted.... PADI has expanded the Dive UNiverse far beyond what any other agency could accomplish.
This is good. I know many awesome PADI instructors, and they ARE environmentally conscious divers....but I believe they feel PADI could care less about the environmental destruction that the classes cause.

So I think many of these guys are conflicted as well. PADI has something very important that is BROKEN, and so far, no one has tried to FIX IT.

Maybe PADI does need to get "hammered" with bad PR, in order for this to become the kind of priority that would make PADI a better agency...?

 

[boulderjohn]

Mandated--directed to do something...in this case:

• An Agency such as PADI has what they call "Standards"....
• In the standards, the instructors perform the drills with the students and instructors constantly coming in contact with the bottom--in fact, they are directed to do this....( if some instructor can show that PADI would allow a open water class to have zero contact with the bottom like a GUE Fundies class, please hop in here and provide the proof of this)
• PADI apparently has absolutely no concern for WHERE it's instructors will sit or stand or walk on the bottom...this is apparently NOT in the Standards....meaning this trampling behavior is perfectly OK on a delicate Hydroid area full of sea horses, nudibranchs, octopus, frog fish, and dozens of other creatures divers travel thousands of miles to see.....PADI apparently does not feel any regulation on this environmental awareness is relevant to making money or to instruction...or to PADI's ads touting their ENVIRONMENTAL AWARENESS ( which gets them market share for sales).
• PADI instructors apparently don't really care that much when they see destructive environmental behaviors by other PADI instructors--so there has been no reporting of this, or no attempt to CHANGE padi "standards".

Dan, as I said, there is not a single word in the standards that dictates kneeling on the bottom, either in the pool or in the open water.

Next, PADI published an article two years ago that described a teaching process that NEVER has students kneel on the bottom and actively says that in the OW students should not be touching the bottom. I was the principal author of that article. Peter and Lynne and Quero from ScubaBoard contributed heavily. In discussing the article, I talked extensively with PADI headquarters through Karl Shreeves, who made it clear that students should be in mid water during the OW dives.

In the most recent thread in which DCBC was on his crusade to misrepresent PADI in retribution for his breakup with them 25 years ago, I quoted an email from PADI headquarters that essentially identified DCBC's claims as BS. I was given permission to forward that email to anyone who wanted to see the entire thing. I made the offer in the thread. The only people who asked to see it were the people who already believed it. The people who were spreading the misinformation were not interested. DCBC did not ask for it. You did not ask for it. I can still send it--would that constitute the proof you need?

Let me explain something about the rules of logic. You are the one who said that PADI standards mandate teaching OW students on the knees. You ask us to provide proof that it does not. The only things we can say is that it does not. The onus is on YOU to provide evidence whatsoever that PADI mandates OW instruction on the knees. If you want, I will send you the entire PADI standards so you can search to you heart's content. It will be in PDF format, and you can copy and paste right into a post to show where it is mandated.

If there is any function or meaning to PADI standards--if they are not a complete and utter joke...then WHY have we not had MANY PADI instructors calling up PADI and complaining that Standards are being violated--by PADI instructors that are NOT exercising good judgement in where they are kneeling on the bottom--it is the same in this BHB Marine Park area--in the concentration of life issue, as it would be over the top of a coral reef. It is NOTHING like dead/devoid of life, sand.

I have not written in about it because I have never seen it happen. Why don't you write in about it if you are so concerned?

My proof is that there has been no reaction from PADI about the environmentally destructive teaching behaviors.....

In order to have a reaction, you have to have an action. Why don't you write directly to PADI with you concerns and then report back on the reaction? Wouldn't make that make more sense then what you are doing now?

BTW, I taught two days of OW dives at BHB in February--no touching of the bottom.

---------- Post added July 2nd, 2013 at 11:51 AM ----------

I am in south Florida every February, and it seems that every February the local newspaper runs a series of stories exposing problems with the police departments in the area.

A couple of years ago it looked into the amazing record the Broward police department has in closing cold case robberies (but without recovering stolen items, supposedly long since fenced). Their suspicions were aroused by the fact that someone confessed to a huge number of robberies and burglaries--well over 100--yet received a surprisingly light sentence. It turned out that he had admitted to committing many of these crimes while he was serving a prison sentence in another state, so he was totally innocent. The investigation revealed that the department's regular policy was that whenever they got someone in custody like that, they made it pretty clear that if he confessed to other crimes, he would get a lighter sentence. The more crimes he confessed to, the lighter the sentence. With that kind of incentive for prisoners, it was easy for them to clear up all the old cases regularly.

Last year it was police speeding while not involved in cases. They used the turnpike records of when vehicles passed the toll recorders to calculate that there were many police who routinely drove over 100 MPH on their way to and from work each day.

Here in our area we just had a police officer who was involved in drunk driving as her primary area of focus arrested with a BAC more than 3 times the legal limit.

Do I therefore conclude that police training academies mandate that officers reward prisoners for confessing to crimes they did not commit, drive at recklessly high speeds on their own time, and drive while heavily intoxicated?

 

[danvolker]

Dan, as I said, there is not a single word in the standards that dictates kneeling on the bottom, either in the pool or in the open water.

Next, PADI published an article two years ago that described a teaching process that NEVER has students kneel on the bottom and actively says that in the OW students should not be touching the bottom. I was the principal author of that article. Peter and Lynne and Quero from ScubaBoard contributed heavily. In discussing the article, I talked extensively with PADI headquarters through Karl Shreeves, who made it clear that students should be in mid water during the OW dives.

In the most recent thread in which DCBC was on his crusade to misrepresent PADI in retribution for his breakup with them 25 years ago, I quoted an email from PADI headquarters that essentially identified DCBC's claims as BS. I was given permission to forward that email to anyone who wanted to see the entire thing. I made the offer in the thread. The only people who asked to see it were the people who already believed it. The people who were spreading the misinformation were not interested. DCBC did not ask for it. You did not ask for it. I can still send it--would that constitute the proof you need?

Let me explain something about the rules of logic. You are the one who said that PADI standards mandate teaching OW students on the knees. You ask us to provide proof that it does not. The only things we can say is that it does not. The onus is on YOU to provide evidence whatsoever that PADI mandates OW instruction on the knees. If you want, I will send you the entire PADI standards so you can search to you heart's content. It will be in PDF format, and you can copy and paste right into a post to show where it is mandated.

I have not written in about it because I have never seen it happen. Why don't you write in about it if you are so concerned?

In order to have a reaction, you have to have an action. Why don't you write directly to PADI with you concerns and then report back on the reaction? Wouldn't make that make more sense then what you are doing now?

BTW, I taught two days of OW dives at BHB in February--no touching of the bottom.

OK, I stand corrected on the issue of kneeling being mandated....My apologies are now mandated for this
On the issue of other instructors communicating to PADI that environmental atrocities are being committed and considered as just normal instruction, I would have thought an active instructor would have done this....but on reflection, my DM card is a PADI card, and I have just as much responsibility to communicate with the PADI corporate office as any of them do.... I tend to think of myself in the DIR world, not PADI, but this has been a mistake.

John, to expedite my attempts to reach the correct party at PADI HQ, do you have a name and number? I could look for my DM "kit", but it is long since stored away as something I was not planning to use....

 

[boulderjohn]

OK, I stand corrected on the issue of kneeling being mandated....My apologies are now mandated for this
On the issue of other instructors communicating to PADI that environmental atrocities are being committed and considered as just normal instruction, I would have thought an active instructor would have done this....but on reflection, my DM card is a PADI card, and I have just as much responsibility to communicate with the PADI corporate office as any of them do.... I tend to think of myself in the DIR world, not PADI, but this has been a mistake.

John, to expedite my attempts to reach the correct party at PADI HQ, do you have a name and number? I could look for my DM "kit", but it is long since stored away as something I was not planning to use....

Dan,

Thanks for this reply.

I will send all sorts of contact information to you directly.

 

[DCBC]

Dan, I think you would be interested in reading this thread: http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/advanced-scuba-discussions/455080-when-skill-mastered.html about PADI policy on kneeling...

 

[Ste Wart]

Ste Wart.... I am not talking about a line with hydroids.... I am talking about a bottom that goes for hundreds of yards, and is covered with delicate life living in what can be best described as a Hydroid Forest.

If there is any function or meaning to PADI standards--if they are not a complete and utter joke...then WHY have we not had MANY PADI instructors calling up PADI and complaining that Standards are being violated--by PADI instructors that are NOT exercising good judgement in where they are kneeling on the bottom--it is the same in this BHB Marine Park area--in the concentration of life issue, as it would be over the top of a coral reef. It is NOTHING like dead/devoid of life, sand.

My proof is that there has been no reaction from PADI about the environmentally destructive teaching behaviors.....
This should indicate that PADI does not care about the Environment.


Maybe PADI does need to get "hammered" with bad PR, in order for this to become the kind of priority that would make PADI a better agency...?

You're having a go at PADI when really it is the individual instructor who happens to teach for PADI that is the problem in your examples. You are asked to demonstrate 'Environmental Awareness' during the I.E and are reprimanded if you don't. It is not a standard because it does not need to be. Is there a need to tell a dive instructor that he should not kneel on coral? No, you are taught this all the way through your PADI education 'take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but bubbles' etc. Passive interaction with the environment is what PADI teaches, though it is not a bold standard to which we must adhere. If you choose to damage the environment with your students, then it is that instructor as an individual, not PADI, that has allowed the practice.

 

[DCBC]

In the most recent thread in which DCBC was on his crusade to misrepresent PADI in retribution for his breakup with them 25 years ago, I quoted an email from PADI headquarters that essentially identified DCBC's claims as BS. I was given permission to forward that email to anyone who wanted to see the entire thing. I made the offer in the thread. The only people who asked to see it were the people who already believed it. The people who were spreading the misinformation were not interested. DCBC did not ask for it. You did not ask for it. I can still send it--would that constitute the proof you need?

Please forward this to me John. Better still, cut and paste it here for all to see. I will be sure to comment.

To quote the PADI Instructor Agreement: "I also will not deviate from the applicable standards when representing myself as a PADI Member." What does not deviate from the applicable standards mean to you? Perhaps you might reread the noted thread I referenced to Dan as well. You seem to have forgotten...

 

[danvolker]

You're having a go at PADI when really it is the individual instructor who happens to teach for PADI that is the problem in your examples. You are asked to demonstrate 'Environmental Awareness' during the I.E and are reprimanded if you don't. It is not a standard because it does not need to be. Is there a need to tell a dive instructor that he should not kneel on coral? No, you are taught this all the way through your PADI education 'take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but bubbles' etc. Passive interaction with the environment is what PADI teaches, though it is not a bold standard to which we must adhere. If you choose to damage the environment with your students, then it is that instructor as an individual, not PADI, that has allowed the practice.

Ste Wart,
There are litterally many dozens of PADI instructors from out of our area, doing exactly what you see in the video, every month. There are no scuba police..there is no way to influence these instructors, EXCEPT by PADI....If PADI wants to do more than kiss babies and give lip service to nonsense lines like 'take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but bubbles' ( nonsense because they do NOTHING to enforce this.....it is like a US President in an election year promising to lower taxes---it is a lie that sounds good)

PADI needs to step up.... Thanks to JOhn, I am now speaking to PADI HQ.
MAybe they will do the right thing.....I hope so!