Any PADI instructors here who are also DIR compliant?

[DCBC]

Exactly! And as of now, all the divers in this video could very well be getting a c card after completing this day of diving....that is so wrong!

Unfortunately, PADI Instructors aren't the only ones that are certifying divers with skill-sets similar to these. UTD, GUI and many Instructors from certification Agencies that allow them to teach beyond "minimum standards" have realized this deficiency and understand that not all divers want the fastest road to certification. Some Students value competence over the card.

 

[NW Dive Dawg]

The PADI diver can be able to survival float, but otherwise be a non-swimmer.

Has the course changed that much since I quit teaching PADI? In my classes, it would have been really hard for a non-swimmer to pass the required swim test.

PADI Instructors cannot exceed PADI training requirements

Sure can. Did it in every class. We just called it "fun time". Once we knocked out PADI minimum training requirements, we moved into the "fun stuff".

and must not deviate from the PADI program; as we both know. .

As mentioned, the PADI program clearly allows "fun" or "free" time. It's all about how you use it. By doing this, PADI instructor can essentially accomplish anything that a NAUI instructor can, without deviating from PADI standards. Maybe some would consider this use of "funtime" as a "loophole"... to teach to a higher level.....but it's there and I used it.

As for the final certification decision, terms like mastery, proficiency and competence are completely subjective and 100% the final decision of the certifying instructor.

If folks are receiving c-cards who are not ready, it is the fault of the instructor, NOT the program.

 

[DCBC]

Has the course changed that much since I quit teaching PADI? In my classes, it would have been really hard for a non-swimmer to pass the required swim test.

I am no longer a PADI Instructor. The Standards however indicate that the swimming portion may be undertaken with fins mask and snorkel. In-addition, a survival float is required. There is nothing that requires the person to swim.

Sure can. Did it in every class. We just called it "fun time". Once we knocked out PADI minimum training requirements, we moved into the "fun stuff". ]

I remember those days as well (up until the time I got a call from PADI HQ telling me that there were no minimums standards only standards). The PADI Instructor Agreement states:

1. I have made myself familiar with and will abide by the applicable Standards and Procedures, as published in the PADI, DSAT and EFR Instructor Manuals, and, if applicable, the PADI Course Director Manual and EFR Instructor Trainer Manual, and will adhere to all standards changes published in the Training Bulletin and other updates, within the capacity of my current classification, when conducting any PADI related Program. I also will not deviate from the applicable standards when representing myself as a PADI Member.

As mentioned, the PADI program clearly allows "fun" or "free" time. It's all about how you use it. By doing this, PADI instructor can essentially accomplish anything that a NAUI instructor can, without deviating from PADI standards. Maybe some would consider this use of "funtime" as a "loophole"... to teach to a higher level.....but it's there and I used it.

How about changing the swimming requirements? teaching buddy-breathing? harassment? CESA in the vertical? I could go on...

As for the final certification decision, terms like mastery, proficiency and competence are completely subjective and 100% the final decision of the certifying instructor. If folks are receiving c-cards who are not ready, it is the fault of the instructor, NOT the program.

Perhaps this thread is a more appropriate place to continue this discussion: http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/advanced-scuba-discussions/455080-when-skill-mastered.html

 

[TSandM]

Scubadog, give it up. DCBC knows a few things to be eternal truths. PADI instructors are handcuffed to the standards book, which must be interpreted absolutely literally, including the suggestions, as being doctrine truth. No PADI instructor may teach a better class than the absolute awful minimum without departing from standards. NOTHING relevant to the local environment may be added to a PADI class.

None of this is true, and we have all posted references and communications with PADI headquarters to try to convince him, but it does not work. You will not win this one.

 

[DCBC]

None of this is true, and we have all posted references and communications with PADI headquarters to try to convince him, but it does not work. You will not win this one.

Lynne, standards may change, but until they do, the words speak for themselves. Anything else is superfluous... I've made specific points to answer the questions posed: "How about changing the swimming requirements? teaching buddy-breathing? harassment? CESA in the vertical? I could go on..."

This conversation is not about what a PADI Instructor can or cannot add to the OW program to suit local conditions (which is a debatable point). Rather how a PADI Instructor can exceed standards (to quote the OP ""Its not so much about staying within standards but more about exceeding the standards...").

A PADI Instructor either can or can not change PADI Standards. We are both aware that they can not. A NAUI Instructor can teach beyond the minimum standards. That's one of the major differences between these organizations.

Wishing this not to be true doesn't change anything. It's nothing that can be argued; it's a matter of policy. "I also will not deviate from the applicable standards when representing myself as a PADI Member." seems pretty clear to me. Do you have a different interpretation???

When will you (and others) admit to the limitations that you must operate under with PADI? I feel compelled to bring this up (yet once again) and will continue to do so until this denial stops. Saying that you can run a PADI OW like a GUI Rec program is misleading; especially when you don't even have to know how to swim to receive a PADI OW card. That's one measure of competence that PADI places on its OW certification...

 

[danvolker]

I would just like to interject something on the abuses we see in Palm Beach at the BHB Marine Park....there are PADI classes run by instructors like Jeff of Force E, where each and every student gets huge attention, each gets very high level training, and no one is "ignored" and allowed to make dozens of major errors in skills and behaviors each dive.....So there are great shops, and great Instructors, that are PADI and that provide first class instruction, and that actually care about the marine environment, and actually teach their students not to destroy delicate marine life by trampling it...

And there are PADI and non-PADI classes, run primarily by shops driving to the BHB from anywhere from 20 miles north to many hundreds of miles north--for the "advantages" of FREE open water at the BHB...and "these" are the worst offenders...these are the classes where they TEACH divers to destroy the life on the bottom....the PADI people that see some of these shops as PADI failures, SHOULD scream to PADI that current policies are CAUSING a horrifying level of environmental ignorance and damage....Certainly some must have by now ( some of the good PADI instructors get apoplectic over the trampling of the hydroid forest areas) ....

And yet, PADI ignores the damage it's policies cause daily! Would they pretend they have not heard of this damage at the BHB?

So while there are some great PADI instructors and some great PADI shops, because they have become the most successful at marketing and bringing Dive Instruction to the masses....PADI is also the most responsible for the level of environmental awareness among new divers...


The clear message is that as a Agency, PADI has ABSOLUTELY NO CONCERNS for the underwater environment....except perhaps when they can gain a cheap advertising benefit from a Reef Cleanup ad.....I think a diver campaign needs to arise where we hold PADI to this sick relationship---where they become known as the agency that is most likely to destroy an environmentally delicate dive site so that they can offer cheap and easy instruction to the masses...

[video=youtube_share;LGcGU-I2jK4]http://youtu.be/LGcGU-I2jK4[/video]

---------- Post added July 1st, 2013 at 09:32 AM ----------

I would love to hear some of the PADI instructors here on SB, decided to bring this issue to PADI....to get them to recognize that PADI is actually heavily responsible for teaching environmentally irresponsible behavior to thousands of divers each month....Please feel free to use the two videos in this thread, and we have plenty of closeup video of the hydroid forest area the students trample, and of the spectacular marine life that was living in it when the trampling began.... ....Or, is environmental awareness only important when you can sell something with a reef-cleanup ad?

 

[Peter Guy]

[Why, oh why, do I do this?]

In reverse order:

Dan -- you wrote that PADI is responsible for creating many divers that destroy the environment. I suppose, in a way, you are correct. PADI, "The Way The World Learns To Dive" IS responsible for creating a teaching environment that has allowed individual instructors around the world to teach and certify many divers -- perhaps more than all the other agencies combined (note -- I wrote "perhaps" since I really don't know how many divers are certified and how many of them get a PADI card -- but I think we can all agree that PADI issues more than any other agency). Thus, by being the 800 pound gorilla that has created a system for certifying divers, Dan, you are, in a way, correct that PADI is ultimately responsible for some number of the bad divers out there.

BUT, and Dan, you know this, PADI through its employees doesn't teach very many divers at all. It really IS about the individual instructor and the shop or resort that encourages or allows shoddy instruction or shoddy results. In fact, PADI, the corporation, does attempt to do quite a bit to encourage good environmental practices and does encourage its certified instructor corps to do likewise. Do most instructors do a good job of encouraging good environmental practices? Well, you be the judge (prosecutor and jury!).

DCBC -- where to begin. You have taken DD's mantra and run with it. Good for you. As for your specific questions:

a. Can a student in a PADI Open Water class get a cert without being able to "swim?" The specific answer is "Yes" but that is only in very specific circumstances (i.e., someone with specific physical limitations). Absent the ADA exemptions, no, one can not get an OW card without being able to "swim." We've had this discussion before -- you believe that one who moves by one's own power while in the water is NOT "swimming" if the person has a mask, fins and snorkel. That is YOUR definition and, fortunately for me, not the one that PADI has (nor the definition that any entity has as far as I can tell from a somewhat quick Google search). In fact, to my way of thinking, it is more relevant to be able to swim WITH a M,F,S than just wearing a speedo.

b. Teaching Buddy Breathing in an O.W. class -- Nope -- not done any more. As with many outdated and/or potentially dangerous teaching methods, PADI prohibits some things (as does every agency with which I am familiar). It is the PADI decision that this is one of those things that shouldn't be taught. You think it should be taught. Good for you. Will you at least agree that not every possible thing that could be done on scuba should be taught in an OW class AND that every agency does prohibit the teaching of some things that CAN be done while on scuba?

c. Harassment -- Well, I know that my OW students believe they are harassed during their OW class, but perhaps not the way YOU want to harass YOUR students. I know that GUE, for example, prohibits physical harassment (such as ripping off a mask) and I am aware of a GUE advanced class where a student was severely reprimanded for striking another student to gain that student's attention, leading me to believe that GUE, like PADI, prohibits physical striking type harassment. Again, I would have to believe that even the vaunted NAUI "instructor gets to do whatever he wants" doesn't condone some types of harassment that YOU might think shows a student is ready! (So I guess that just shows that even NAUI doesn't give total free rein to its instructors despite your statements over and over again that NAUI allows instructors to do what they want to "exceed standards".)

d. CESA in the vertical. I don't get this one. ALL PADI OW students MUST successfully do a vertical CESA. The CESA is introduced in confined water, usually done in a horizontal manner in shallow water. But even in confined water, students are encouraged to practice CESAs in a vertical, or near vertical, manner. In most confined water conditions, doing a purely vertical CESA isn't terribly useful -- 10 foot pool, 6 foot student, only rises 4 feet before hitting the surface. OTOH, doing a diagonal CESA can allow the student to go from 10 feet to the surface over a 30+ foot distance.

e. Having been involved with PADI for a while in addition to hanging around way too many GUE types I just don't understand how you can say that I, as a PADI instructor, couldn't teach a class that is in all important aspects consistent with the GUE rec class. Having read the description of the Rec 1 class it seems like it is, in fact, just an OW class that has Nitrox added in (which is entirely consistent with PADI OW/Nitrox combo). Are there a few restrictions that GUE has that would not apply? Yes -- but nothing that is core.

 

[danvolker]

[Why, oh why, do I do this?]

In reverse order:

Dan -- you wrote that PADI is responsible for creating many divers that destroy the environment. I suppose, in a way, you are correct. PADI, "The Way The World Learns To Dive" IS responsible for creating a teaching environment that has allowed individual instructors around the world to teach and certify many divers -- perhaps more than all the other agencies combined (note -- I wrote "perhaps" since I really don't know how many divers are certified and how many of them get a PADI card -- but I think we can all agree that PADI issues more than any other agency). Thus, by being the 800 pound gorilla that has created a system for certifying divers, Dan, you are, in a way, correct that PADI is ultimately responsible for some number of the bad divers out there.

BUT, and Dan, you know this, PADI through its employees doesn't teach very many divers at all. It really IS about the individual instructor and the shop or resort that encourages or allows shoddy instruction or shoddy results. In fact, PADI, the corporation, does attempt to do quite a bit to encourage good environmental practices and does encourage its certified instructor corps to do likewise. Do most instructors do a good job of encouraging good environmental practices? Well, you be the judge (prosecutor and jury!).

DCBC -- where to begin. You have taken DD's mantra and run with it. Good for you. As for your specific questions:

a. Can a student in a PADI Open Water class get a cert without being able to "swim?" The specific answer is "Yes" but that is only in very specific circumstances (i.e., someone with specific physical limitations). Absent the ADA exemptions, no, one can not get an OW card without being able to "swim." We've had this discussion before -- you believe that one who moves by one's own power while in the water is NOT "swimming" if the person has a mask, fins and snorkel. That is YOUR definition and, fortunately for me, not the one that PADI has (nor the definition that any entity has as far as I can tell from a somewhat quick Google search). In fact, to my way of thinking, it is more relevant to be able to swim WITH a M,F,S than just wearing a speedo.

b. Teaching Buddy Breathing in an O.W. class -- Nope -- not done any more. As with many outdated and/or potentially dangerous teaching methods, PADI prohibits some things (as does every agency with which I am familiar). It is the PADI decision that this is one of those things that shouldn't be taught. You think it should be taught. Good for you. Will you at least agree that not every possible thing that could be done on scuba should be taught in an OW class AND that every agency does prohibit the teaching of some things that CAN be done while on scuba?

c. Harassment -- Well, I know that my OW students believe they are harassed during their OW class, but perhaps not the way YOU want to harass YOUR students. I know that GUE, for example, prohibits physical harassment (such as ripping off a mask) and I am aware of a GUE advanced class where a student was severely reprimanded for striking another student to gain that student's attention, leading me to believe that GUE, like PADI, prohibits physical striking type harassment. Again, I would have to believe that even the vaunted NAUI "instructor gets to do whatever he wants" doesn't condone some types of harassment that YOU might think shows a student is ready! (So I guess that just shows that even NAUI doesn't give total free rein to its instructors despite your statements over and over again that NAUI allows instructors to do what they want to "exceed standards".)

d. CESA in the vertical. I don't get this one. ALL PADI OW students MUST successfully do a vertical CESA. The CESA is introduced in confined water, usually done in a horizontal manner in shallow water. But even in confined water, students are encouraged to practice CESAs in a vertical, or near vertical, manner. In most confined water conditions, doing a purely vertical CESA isn't terribly useful -- 10 foot pool, 6 foot student, only rises 4 feet before hitting the surface. OTOH, doing a diagonal CESA can allow the student to go from 10 feet to the surface over a 30+ foot distance.

e. Having been involved with PADI for a while in addition to hanging around way too many GUE types I just don't understand how you can say that I, as a PADI instructor, couldn't teach a class that is in all important aspects consistent with the GUE rec class. Having read the description of the Rec 1 class it seems like it is, in fact, just an OW class that has Nitrox added in (which is entirely consistent with PADI OW/Nitrox combo). Are there a few restrictions that GUE has that would not apply? Yes -- but nothing that is core.

Peter....my biggest issue in the anti-environment aspect of PADI is WHETHER they MANDATE kneeling on a coral reef bottom, or hydroid forest bottom, if this area is to be used for an open water class....Either PADI needs to create policy on a class being taught on top of a coral reef or Hydroid forest type area like the BHB--or they need to be seen as not caring about the environment--as the environment being irrelevent compared to the need to teach a class whereever it is cheap or expedient.

Why should I not blame PADI as well as the shop that uses the PADI mandates to structure it's plans?

 

[pocky21]

Just an observation I made, but during my IE, both examiners made it a point to never touch the bottom. In fact, we were never told to place "students" on their knees by anyone but our CD, and I was not docked on control for allowing "students" to rest in a more fin-pivot like position.

On the flip side, nearly every "instructor" I was under would forcefully command me to plop down and sit pretty - which was a giant PITA for me. Interestingly enough, I was actually pulled aside post-examination and commended for my performance.

I believe the issue rests with a chain of learning that starts from the time you're a student. Your instructor sits on his knees, talks about how buoyancy is such an important but difficult thing to master, buy this class, etc... and this trend continues even past the point of instructor. I've noticed that most instructors simply echo their course director and/or the instructors who came before them - I know hearing a lesson at my shop often sounds like a broken record. I would argue that, if PADI released a standard that required teaching off the bottom due to local conditions (or just because), a large majority of their instructors would reply "well just how am I supposed to do THAT?"

It's kind of a catch 22 - I think the agencies realize a better way is out there - but their hands are tied by what they've already created.

 

[DCBC]

[Why, oh why, do I do this?]

Because you believe in worthwhile causes...

DCBC -- where to begin. You have taken DD's mantra and run with it. Good for you. As for your specific questions:

Actually I thought these were not DD's words but those specified within the PADI Instructor's Agreement...

....no, one can not get an OW card without being able to "swim." We've had this discussion before -- you believe that one who moves by one's own power while in the water is NOT "swimming" if the person has a mask, fins and snorkel. That is YOUR definition and, fortunately for me, not the one that PADI has (nor the definition that any entity has as far as I can tell from a somewhat quick Google search). In fact, to my way of thinking, it is more relevant to be able to swim WITH a M,F,S than just wearing a speedo.

Peter, I define (like most organizations do) that swimming does NOT include ANY swimming aids including FM&S, a flutterboard or a lifejacket. Even Red Cross "Swim Kids" level 5 requires two lengths of a pool unassisted. And to think that a PADI OW Diver can be certified with no swimming ability; only be able to drownproof and use a swimming aid?

If this isn't the case, perhaps you can explain to me how the wording used in the PADI Standards can be interpreted in any other way!

b. Teaching Buddy Breathing in an O.W. class -- Nope -- not done any more. As with many outdated and/or potentially dangerous teaching methods, PADI prohibits some things (as does every agency with which I am familiar). It is the PADI decision that this is one of those things that shouldn't be taught. You think it should be taught. Good for you. Will you at least agree that not every possible thing that could be done on scuba should be taught in an OW class AND that every agency does prohibit the teaching of some things that CAN be done while on scuba?

Outdated? Dangerous? Perhaps for incompetent Divers. I've been teaching BB for 42 years and first learned to BB when I was 11 years old. Hardly difficult. It's a great confidence building exercise which promotes good buddy communication and teamwork...

My point is that you couldn't teach it if you wanted to, as it's prohibited by PADI. The only thing that NAUI and CMAS prohibits is obviously unsafe actions like teaching a Student to exceed the recommended ascent rate in contravention of safe practice guidelines and other equally obvious contraventions to safe diving practice. Buddy-breathing is not one of these...

c. Harassment -- Well, I know that my OW students believe they are harassed during their OW class, but perhaps not the way YOU want to harass YOUR students. I know that GUE, for example, prohibits physical harassment (such as ripping off a mask) and I am aware of a GUE advanced class where a student was severely reprimanded for striking another student to gain that student's attention, leading me to believe that GUE, like PADI, prohibits physical striking type harassment. Again, I would have to believe that even the vaunted NAUI "instructor gets to do whatever he wants" doesn't condone some types of harassment that YOU might think shows a student is ready! (So I guess that just shows that even NAUI doesn't give total free rein to its instructors despite your statements over and over again that NAUI allows instructors to do what they want to "exceed standards".)

Incorrect. NAUI does not prohibit harassment as long as it's in the best interests of the student. A NAUI Instructor is expected to use good judgement and has the freedom to do so.

In-fact incremental harassment is and has been used for over 60 years by the military and commercial diving schools as the preferred method of increasing Diver confidence and to lower the chance of panic. Increasing anxiety and task loading is encouraged by CMAS, NAUI and ACUC. Obviously this is done in a modular way and within the student's capability. No one trys to give the student more than they can reasonably handle. Increased confidence and competance does in-fact increase diver safety. I (like many Instructors) prefer to prepare Students for diving in other than ideal circumstances. Things go wrong and these events are not restricted to experienced Divers only. No one is immune.

d. CESA in the vertical. I don't get this one. ALL PADI OW students MUST successfully do a vertical CESA. The CESA is introduced in confined water, usually done in a horizontal manner in shallow water. But even in confined water, students are encouraged to practice CESAs in a vertical, or near vertical, manner. In most confined water conditions, doing a purely vertical CESA isn't terribly useful -- 10 foot pool, 6 foot student, only rises 4 feet before hitting the surface. OTOH, doing a diagonal CESA can allow the student to go from 10 feet to the surface over a 30+ foot distance.

Peter, if this is the case, why do I read about CESA being taught and performed horizontally? Are these Instructors not complying with PADI Standards? Do you require a 50 foot CESA? Can you? No, I suppose not...

e. Having been involved with PADI for a while in addition to hanging around way too many GUE types I just don't understand how you can say that I, as a PADI instructor, couldn't teach a class that is in all important aspects consistent with the GUE rec class. Having read the description of the Rec 1 class it seems like it is, in fact, just an OW class that has Nitrox added in (which is entirely consistent with PADI OW/Nitrox combo). Are there a few restrictions that GUE has that would not apply? Yes -- but nothing that is core.

Without looking at the GUE Standards again, can you increase the PADI minimum swimming requirements to GUE Standards? If not, what makes you think that you can teach a PADI OW Class anywhere close to a GUE Rec program?...

Peter my point is that PADI is a teach by numbers program. You are told what to teach and when in the program to teach it. This works for many people who want to be certified quickly with minimum effort. Restrictions are placed within the program for a reason. If you want to know more take AOW, Rescue etc. Those courses have specific standards as well that can't be modified.

There are major differences between PADI and every other training agency. You just don't seem to acknowledge this...

Like I mentioned to Lynne: "I also will not deviate from the applicable standards when representing myself as a PADI Member (PADI Instructor Agreement)." What does not deviate from the applicable standards mean to you?