" Am I Qualified?"

[jviehe]

***********Disclaimer*************
This is based on a noob diver that thinks he understands PADI training and limits. Please read at your own risk.
***********Disclaimer*************

Basically, I think this should ALL be decided by the Diver that wants to Dive and not left up to the pro. You know your limits based on your own training. If you want to exceed those suggested limits, it is up to the Professional to say, "yes or no" about taking you on that dive. When you charter a Boat, no matter what kind of waiver you have signed, the owner of the boat has some liability. If the operator took you to the Deck of the Oriskany with only an AOW then they are at fault.

It takes 4 dives at 60+ feet with tasks plus more Knowledge reading/tests to complete "Deep Diver" in which the "suggested" MAX limit is 130 feet but the limit suggested as safe is 100'.

Advanced trains you for One dive of each "Adventure" dive. These help push you towards Specializations like Deep, DPV, Nav, etc etc. it gives you Nothing in the way of setting new suggested limits for the diver.

If I am wrong, please would a PADI Instructor help me out by telling me how it really works?

You are essentially correct, althought it does increase suggested limits. OW basically says 60ft to start, 100 with AOW, 130 with deep speciality. BUT, experience can be just as good. Most "deep" divers probably dont have AOW or any post OW training.

I agree that in the end the diver is responsible for knowing and setting their own limits, but Captains and Dive Pros assume some responsibility for their charges, and incidents are bad for business.

 

[NJMike]

Very interesting...

While I am a noobie with 8 dives, my dream dive (right now) is on the Blenny (WWII sub). She sits in 70' of water - not too deep even by OW standards. I have done deeper here at Dutch Springs. The dive charter requires AOW for this dive.

I plan to take the AOW in May, the next scheduled class at the LDS, so that I can dive the Blenny (and *if* I get to the Caribbean next fall, *if* any operators down there require it).

However, even with some added dives prior to the AOW class, I will in no way consider myself an advanced diver just be getting the certification. And, by the way, I am also planning on doing the PADI wreck course before the Blenny dive as well. Even then, no way would I be an "advanced" diver.

For me, "advanced" means two things - first, to be allowed on charters that I AM QUALIFIED FOR, based on my experience, self evaluation and dive master's evaluation; and second, hopefully, and indication that I want to learn more.

The charter who does the Blenny dive requires, in lieu of the AOW, some type of equivalent experience. Without that, they also require a shallow dive with them first (< 70').

I sent them an email asking them to PLEASE schedule a shallow dive BEFORE the Blenny dive, so that I can do both.

I hope I never get to the point where I want to do a dive so bad that it overrules my better judgement...and I think the operator should do as much as they can to protect their own liability.

Sorry for the long winded post but this is such a good thread that I couldn't resist!

 

[algulfdiver]

I haven't dived the Oriskany but from what I've read the flight deck is at 137 feet?

Are charters taking AOW (non-tech) divers there and, if so, how are they conducting these dives?

Based on what little I know about it, the dive you'd get trying to do it as a no-stop dive doesn't sound like it would be worth the boat ride.

Mike,
Yes we take AOW and we hook in to the Island where you hit structure at 70' We limit rec. divers to 130'.
I have done a 40 mi. dive on the "O" on 29%

 

[algulfdiver]

I should have quoted what I was asking about and perhaps it was not even a reply to me.


Was my understanding of your first original question correct? Algulfdiver are you asking how we try to convince you to let us on?
My confusion is the two statements seem to disagree. Hey, as the convincer I want to know what you’re thinking.

redrover,
I was just making 2 statements on the subject sorry for the confusion.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I'd be reluctant to take a dedicated cave diver on some of the deeper gulf rigs. The skills sets are not necessarily complimentary. Following or laying line in a hole in the rocks is a completely different skill set than hunting large fish in bottomless water with rapidly shifting currents and unpredictable vis.

I'm not sure what you mean by "dedicated cave diver" but there isn't anything about a cave cert that says you're experienced in every type of environment. Most of the cave divers I know have done lots of diving outside of caves....especially when you start talking wrecks.

If I'm going to be on the road, I carry the cards that get me the most access. Not to fool anyone about what my experience is but so that I don't have to pass on any worthwhile oportunities. I carry a cave card (in case I want access to a controled cave), a trimix card (so I can buy whatever gas I might want) and a gas blender card (in case I get the chance to mix my own gas in someone elses facility and that has happened more than some might think). Another reason that I carry those cards is because I tend to shy away from "rec" charters. Not because I'm a snob but some of the chinanigans you see give me a nervous stomach and it makes it hard to enjoy myself.

Still there are environments that I have no experience at all in. One example is live boating wrecks like some charters on Florida's east coast do. I've been on plenty of wrecks and some pretty deep cold ones but I've never live boated. I would start with some easy ones. It's not likely to kill me but I sure could miss the wreck and end up seeing nothing for my money. Another example would be the northeast wrecks. I've never dived the northeast and I wouldn't go straight to the Doria...not that I have any interest at all in the Doria.

I don't think I have any desire to grab hold of a big fish and try to wrestle him especially down deep. Needless to say, I have absolutely zero experience doing it. I'd like to dive some of the oil rigs (the weathers always been bad when I was down there) but I think I'll pass on skitchin behind big fish. I do a little hunting once in a while but smaller fish taste as good or better and are a lot easier to haul up. LOL it's hard to beat a 3 pound walleye and you can shoot one of those on a brush pile at 30 ft.

 

[duskdiver]

I agree, Advanced does not mean a thing, I have seen a lot of divers with 9 dives, calling themselves Advanced divers( doing the OWDC and AOWD in a single go)...better have alook in there logbooks!

 

[GA Under Water]

I look at it this way. If I chose to take a Wreck dive as one of my 5 dives to become AOW does that mean I have the knowhow to penetrate a wreck? Not in the least, so why would a single dive to 60+ be enough to say I can go to 100+ feet? It truely isn't. IMO.

Here is my suggestion for PADI.

Take away "Advanced Open Water" until 3+ specialties
Instead of 5 Adventure dives being called "advanced" change that to "Adventure Diver"

What this would do is take the human nature of thinking "Advanced" means more than what I have, (good old human competetiveness) and say more that this person is learning more ways to be profecient in the water.

You are essentially correct, althought it does increase suggested limits. OW basically says 60ft to start, 100 with AOW, 130 with deep speciality. BUT, experience can be just as good. Most "deep" divers probably dont have AOW or any post OW training.

Thanks for the Clarification. I don't agree with PADI but now I know their limits by word of an Instructor. Thanks for letting me know.

 

[IceBergSlim]

I'm worried about someone who considers depth irrelevent. Depth is a critical factor in dive planning.

Thanks for the tip but please don't worry about me.

What I was saying is if a person is calling a dive operator to dive a site they know little about they most likely have little experience. All to often divers ONLY inquire about depth as if that were the single definition of a dives complexity.

 

[FredT]

Mike,

I tend to stay out of all overheads, unless I can see the way out looking in.

Rig diving requires a different skill set from most open water diving, and some rather unique to the sport. Buoyancy control without instruments and navigation again without instruments are foremost of the set, as well as knowing when the fish is too big to land.

BTW we live boat in the Gulf too where there is a hard bottom to go to. This is reffered to as "buoy diving" where the divers drop down a marker buoy to the ledge edge, then swim along it hunting until it's time to come up. Ascend to the first deco stop (if any) or 15 and shoot a bag so the boat can find you. In general you'll surface within a quarter mile of the drop spot on a ledge. A wreck is never a problem to find the divers. We do tend to "pick the day" to make diver recovery easier though. On a full day trip hooking up you'll get about 3 or 4 drops a day. Diving the buoy you can get up to 5 drops/ team with up to 15 or 20 drops per boat per day. We can cover a lot more bottom that way and we can reasonably hit smaller spots with less fishing pressure.

Mostly the LA/MS central gulf is an ooze bottom so we tend to avoid it unless you need to take a fish into it to starve it for O2 to get it under control.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Th live boating I was refering to is dropping in upcurrent from the wreck and once done on the wreck shooting a bag and doing a drifting ascent/decompression.