Alec Pierce Scuba - Long Hose Good or Bad

[jgttrey]

Says the guy that went straight for a pointless dig instead of anything of substance.

Back to the actual discussion, there's a lot wrong there, which is a shame. I've gotten a lot of good info from Alec over the years. But there's so little research done here. Everything from the hose routing, to which reg is donated, to the tradeoffs of using both configurations. It's bad. He's not wrong that most people are familiar with the standard octo configuration or that a long hose isn't totally necessary in rec diving. But the rest of it is sorely in need of a follow up/correction.

Yup. It did stack the deck against the long hose when he tied it in a noose around his neck. All the suspense was gone. If he wore a weight belt around his neck Iike that, we'd have to rethink that too.

 

[pauldw]

Actually, PADI did publish a training update a couple years back about donating the primary as an option in OW courses. SSI has been doing so forever.

Given that some percentage of PADI and SSI divers are taught to donate the primary (and this is the overwhelming majority of divers), it is more than 1% of divers who would donate the primary. Plus, most cases of people getting mugged by an OOG diver lost their primary.

OK. I'll take back my "99%" if you take back your "forever" (my wife certified SSI forever ago, and she learned to use an octopus). But I won't go far off the 99%. And I will note that looking at the SSI web site for pictures in their education pages of divers having fun, I'm seeing a lot of yellow. And I will also observe that saying an agency (PADI) has an option to cover something does not mean they are routinely doing it, much less promoting it, and PADI's web site also shows a lot of yellow.

But while I'm here I'll broach a question: I have often heard that one reason for primary donate is to make sure the OOA person has a reg that the donor knows is working. It seems to me that knowing my reg is working is a good reason to keep it in my mouth! If my other one is working too, that's swell, but if it isn't, then that's a shame but it's not my problem, it's just a continuation of the sad problems someone else is having. Perhaps I'm going to be in a calmer position to switch regs and work out problems with the other reg than is the person who is already panicking, but is that a reason to take something out of my mouth that I normally only remove for purposes of blowing air rings? We're talking normal divers here, not steely eyed aquamen who eat danger for breakfast and devour procedural handbooks for lunch. People who might become muggers if things aren't real clear in the moment. Things that are the same color as what they're flooding their wetsuits with.

Says the guy that went straight for a pointless dig instead of anything of substance.

Such dire need.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

OK. I'll take back my "99%" if you take back your "forever" (my wife certified SSI forever ago, and she learned to use an octopus). But I won't go far off the 99%. And I will note that looking at the SSI web site for pictures in their education pages of divers having fun, I'm seeing a lot of yellow. And I will also observe that saying an agency (PADI) has an option to cover something does not mean they are routinely doing it, much less promoting it, and PADI's web site also shows a lot of yellow.

Re: PADI. Ultimately we don't know what percentage of divers are taught to donate primary or alternated (they should be trained in both IMO).

Re: SSI. Yes, a lot of yellow is shown. So? That's because what is sold.

But while I'm here I'll broach a question: I have often heard that one reason for primary donate is to make sure the OOA person has a reg that the donor knows is working. It seems to me that knowing my reg is working is a good reason to keep it in my mouth! If my other one is working too, that's swell, but if it isn't, then that's a shame but it's not my problem, it's just a continuation of the sad problems someone else is having. Perhaps I'm going to be in a calmer position to switch regs and work out problems with the other reg than is the person who is already panicking, but is that a reason to take something out of my mouth that I normally only remove for purposes of blowing air rings? We're talking normal divers here, not steely eyed aquamen who eat danger for breakfast and devour procedural handbooks for lunch. People who might become muggers if things aren't real clear in the moment.

What do you think is going to happen to you if you donate a non working reg? Do you really think it isn't your problem?

 

[MichaelMc]

It is sad that Alec got it so messed up. Makes his conclusions not worth as much as if he had understood how it is used. It is largely shocking that he got it so wrong, for having decided to do a video on it.

I hope he does a separate video, ideally appended to this one, or even replacing it. Not because I disagree with his conclusion, which on suitability I do, and dive long hose recreationally. But because he is a well known and trusted source that put out a bunch of wrong information just now, on the mechanics of long hose/primary donate.

For the rest, see several threads on primary donate, 7', 5', Air2, etc.... I would say innumerable threads, but that would be inaccurate, they can in fact be counted....

 

[jgttrey]

Perhaps I'm going to be in a calmer position to switch regs and work out problems with the other reg than is the person who is already panicking, but is that a reason to take something out of my mouth that I normally only remove for purposes of blowing air rings?

That is part of the rationale. The OOA dive may be in full panic and may not have had a breath in a while.

Another rationale applicable in tech diving is that not only do you know the reg you are breathing is working, connected to a cylinder with gas, and not shutoff, it is also the right gas mix for the depth. Handing an OOA dive a reg connected to 100% O2 when you're at 150' is a bad idea. So, you give him what you know is working, on and safe, knowing you have time to sort it out for yourself.

Plus, in a tech configuration your secondary is usually hanging from a necklace on a short hose a few inches from your mouth. It takes about 1 second for you to get it.

 

[Diving Dubai]

I got bored listening to his rambling *yawn*

That said, while I use a long hose for dives with physical overheads as it was designed for - exiting in a trailing line, I don't think long hose is required for OW

Personally I dive with 2 x 40" the Alt second coming from the left (with a swivel)

My personal opinion based on actual experience is that in OW 40" is long enough to have some space but also control

Someone is bound to write about muscle memory etc..

Know you gear. I can jump between BCD, wing, SM, long hose or 40" etc and be aware and practiced enough to complete the required immediate actions without thought

I personally dive the optimum gear for that environment/dive

YMMV

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

That is part of the rationale. The OOA dive may be in full panic and may not have had a breath in a while.

Another rationale applicable in tech diving is that not only do you know the reg you are breathing is working, connected to a cylinder with gas, and not shutoff, it is also the right gas mix for the depth. Handing an OOA dive a reg connected to 100% O2 when you're at 150' is a bad idea. So, you give him what you know is working, on and safe, knowing you have time to sort it out for yourself.

Plus, in a tech configuration your secondary is usually hanging from a necklace on a short hose a few inches from your mouth. It takes about 1 second for you to get it.

Unfortunately, not all recreational divers check their regs by breathing in the water before starting? How many rec divers drag their octopus along the bottom?

 

[jgttrey]

Unfortunately, not all recreational divers check their regs by breathing in the water before starting? How many rec divers drag their octopus along the bottom?

I was just answering a question not recommending that anyone depart from their training.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I was just answering a question not recommending that anyone depart from their training.

Yup. Just pointing this out. Not arguing.

 

[helodriver87]

That is part of the rationale. The OOA dive may be in full panic and may not have had a breath in a while.

Another rationale applicable in tech diving is that not only do you know the reg you are breathing is working, connected to a cylinder with gas, and not shutoff, it is also the right gas mix for the depth. Handing an OOA dive a reg connected to 100% O2 when you're at 150' is a bad idea. So, you give him what you know is working, on and safe, knowing you have time to sort it out for yourself.

Plus, in a tech configuration your secondary is usually hanging from a necklace on a short hose a few inches from your mouth. It takes about 1 second for you to get it.

To add to this, if you're diving a traditional doubles setup, the right post is guaranteed to be full open. A) because you're breathing it and B) because it rolls open against the ceiling. When you donate, you're in a far better position to recognize and correct a left post roll off when you switch to your backup than the panicked dude without access to your valves. Plus, donating the reg in your mouth guarantees it's not clipped off somewhere. It's a clean, quick motion.

In single tank you (mostly) don't have to worry about roll off, but the second part remains true. It's also nice to switch to a reg that's protected and tucked up close to your mouth. There's a good chance it's not fouled up or dirty. I'd rather donate the known working reg to the dude that needs it and sort out whatever minor problem I have with mine than have him suck down a bunch of sand and come for my backup.

Edited to acknowledge that right post roll off can happen in some situations.