A sticky wicket...

[MSilvia]

Sorry, I was assuming worst case.

...and why not? Two of the three divers in that... uh... group aren't overhead trained, and the third is (I would assume) acting without regard for his training by virtue of having taken the others in. It wouldn't be that big a stretch to imagine one of them off the line.

I'm not cave trained, but it seems like the situation should have been remedied far in advance of the described situation.

 

[jeckyll]

Perrone: I think I've said this elsewhere, but with regard to your last statement:

I think the key is not to dive with unsafe divers. IMO safe divers can come from any agency and have any experience level. It is an attitude. It's just that DIR tries to specifically instill more of this attitude in training by focusing on the team aspect combined with standard training and configurations and gases. I would expect that DIR trained diver to have a different starting point.

Personally, there are divers that have gone through fundies that I don't enjoy diving with. There are plenty of divers that have never gone through fundies that I enjoy diving with very much. Not only because they are safe divers, but because I enjoy spending the SI with them as well

What I _can_ tell you is that none of the divers I'd dive with regularly would behave like either diver 1 or diver 3.

Bjorn

 

[PerroneFord]

Excellent discussion so far. Seems we are touching on some excellent points, all valid. Shouldn't be there in the first place, no-win scenario, etc.

In my cave training we were presented (verbally) with a no-win scenario and asked how we would react. The purpose, as DIR-Atlanta pointed out, was not to find a solution to the no-win scenario, but to understand how not to GET into a no-win scenario in the first place.

I knew when I posted the original question, that it would present some sticky decisions because there really is no one correct answer. Different answers are plausible for different reasons. Those of us who dive overheads understand that sometimes we will have to make decisions that might cost lives. Sometimes the decision comes down to which life will be lost, not IF a life will be lost. But we'd like to think that with proper planning and procedure, we will NEVER be placed in that scenario.

We can close this discussion if you want. I am not sure there is much more to be had from it. I think we've explored where I had hoped to go with it.

 

[limeyx]

That right there should tell you something.

No offense intended to JeffG and Limeyx - their intentions are noble in suggesting possible ways to deal with the situation, but they can't both be right. This is basically a no-win situation if it happens in the water, which is why it needs to be discussed and sorted out before the dive ever even starts. And if you don't have 100% confidence in your "groupmates" to stick to the agreed upon dive plan, then your best option is to stay out of the water altogether.

(I apologize for not seeing the "shades of grey" here, but in my mind, there are none).

Agreed. My post was from the perspective of "I was sleeping in my bed, and open my eyes and suddenly I am diving in PF's scenario" I sincerely hope my training and general good sense prevent me from overhead diving with any divers not on the same page and with appropriate training (for me, just beginning my cave training, this essentially means GUE cave I, II or II divers, and probably ones that I already dive regularly with -- I already have enough to worry about in an overhead without extra complications)

 

[JeffG]

What I _can_ tell you is that none of the divers I'd dive with regularly would behave like either diver 1 or diver 3.

Never say never.

People do weird things under pressure. DIR or not.

I understand where Perrone is coming from. It isn't DIR, but its a scenario that could easily be played out during a dive. (Having been in a couple.)

 

[JeffG]

In my cave training we were presented (verbally) with a no-win scenario and asked how we would react. The purpose, as DIR-Atlanta pointed out, was not to find a solution to the no-win scenario, but to understand how not to GET into a no-win scenario in the first place.

We are discussing the DIR Kobayashi Maru LOL

 

[PerroneFord]

We are discussing the DIR Kobayashi Maru LOL

That is exactly what was in my mind. I have a few more, like the one I got hit with in cave class. Maybe I'll toss them out another time.

 

[SparticleBrane]

We are discussing the DIR Kobayashi Maru LOL

It's really sad I know what that is off the top of my head. :shakehead

 

[limeyx]

That is exactly what was in my mind. I have a few more, like the one I got hit with in cave class. Maybe I'll toss them out another time.

You see before you 100 tunnels, all alike. Your line has been cut by a vicious pirhana fish, and you have no idea where the exit is.

All three primary lights have gone out. Your last backup light starts to flicker.
You realize your SPG has not been working for the last 30 mins, and your SAC rate really *hasn't* improved by 300% -- you've been burning your last 1/3 of gas for the last 25 mins.

You hear the sounds of the cave collapsing in the far far distance.

COMMAND> "Exit Cave"

You turn around. You see before you 100 tunnels all alike.

COMMAND> "Exit other way"

You see before you 100 tunnels all alike.

Your last backup light goes out. You feel your primary regulator being pulled from your mouth.

What do you do ?

1) Spear both buddies to death with your knife, steal their doubles and lights and high-tail it out
2) accept your fate and go quietly
3) donate your doubles to your "more in need team-mates"
4) Get out your shovels and attempt to dig through the ceiling in one last attempt at survival

 

[SparticleBrane]

COMMAND> Take up golf

or

COMMAND> cyanide pill