A sticky wicket...

[PerroneFord]

I thought rule # 1 was "non- DIR divers?"

Nope. Unsafe divers. Though "unsafe" can be flexible to encompass a wide variety of divers including DIR divers.

 

[DIR-Atlanta]

I thought rule # 1 was "non- DIR divers?"

Nope. Unsafe divers. Though "unsafe" can be flexible to encompass a wide variety of divers including DIR divers.

The original Rule #1 is "Don't dive with strokes". A "stroke" is a diver with an unsafe attitude, and is definitely not restricted to the non-DIR community (i.e. there are numerous divers out there who claim to be DIR, but still fit the profile of a stroke).

You will find that DIR divers do tend to prefer diving with other DIR divers, but that's usually not due to elitism. It's just that once you adopt the DIR mindset, you find it much easier (and in many cases less stressful) to dive with people who share it. You can pretty well bet that they are going to be on the same page as you on most issues relating to gear config and dive planning, and there is a certain amount of comfort in that, especially when diving with someone that is new to you.

Appearances can be deceiving, however. One of the interesting paradoxes of DIR is that a diver who is "truly" DIR, will always be DIR, no matter what type of gear they dive in. However, a person who wears DIR gear and talks DIR talk, isn't necessarily going to be DIR. Even GUE-trained divers aren't necessarily going to be DIR (although the odds are definitely better that they will be).

In the end, it all boils down to the attitudes of the individual divers, just like it always has. That's why it's important to choose your buddies carefully, especially for those more challenging dives.

 

[limeyx]

COMMAND> "Wake up."

heh, yeah, that would be a bad day indeed. Definitely would be wishing I *had* taken up golf.

 

[limeyx]

...
The hardest scenario was when I was in the middle, fast swimmer was in the lead on exit, and slowest swimmer was last out. I was trying to signal the lead to slow down, and the person behind me wasn't keeping up with my casual pace. Since we'd turned on thirds, it wasn't the time to piddle around and enjoy the scenery. It was time to go home!

In several instances as the gaps widened, the instructors hit us with OOAs forcing us to close the gap to help each other. It was some of the hardest stuff I've ever done. And trying to play middleman between two divergent ends is no joke. In open water it's unpleasant. In a cave, it can be deadly.

In the case that #1 takes off too fast, there is an easy solution. Slow down to the pace of the person behind you (which you should always do anyway) and cover your light.

This should cause any (sane) #1 to stop to come back to find you. If you go OOA, then you have been smart and stayed close enough to #3 to get gas. You are also being a "good" #2 keeping #2 and #3 together. Once #1 goes OOA, maybe they will realize the error of their ways ...

 

[limeyx]

A couple of points:



2. The dive referenced in the scenario was not arrange by me. It was an instabuddy scenario. I did the best I could under the circumstances I was in,
...

This about covers it ... I dont think instabuddy and overhead/tech diving go together. Generally if I have a (DIR) instabuddy situation, then I will do a shallow dive with them first. Definitely not a cave dive.

Not to say I have never been in a real instabuddy situation and dived anyway (shame on me). Hopefully I have learned my lesson.

 

[limeyx]

The original Rule #1 is "Don't dive with strokes". A "stroke" is a diver with an unsafe attitude, and is definitely not restricted to the non-DIR community (i.e. there are numerous divers out there who claim to be DIR, but still fit the profile of a stroke).

You will find that DIR divers do tend to prefer diving with other DIR divers, but that's usually not due to elitism. It's just that once you adopt the DIR mindset, you find it much easier (and in many cases less stressful) to dive with people who share it. You can pretty well bet that they are going to be on the same page as you on most issues relating to gear config and dive planning, and there is a certain amount of comfort in that, especially when diving with someone that is new to you.

Appearances can be deceiving, however. One of the interesting paradoxes of DIR is that a diver who is "truly" DIR, will always be DIR, no matter what type of gear they dive in. However, a person who wears DIR gear and talks DIR talk, isn't necessarily going to be DIR. Even GUE-trained divers aren't necessarily going to be DIR (although the odds are definitely better that they will be).

In the end, it all boils down to the attitudes of the individual divers, just like it always has. That's why it's important to choose your buddies carefully, especially for those more challenging dives.

Well put. This definitely sums me up. The vast majority of my dives have been with DIR-trained divers, but I have no problem doing recreational dives with non-DIR people who are safe.

I have also dived with "DIR" people (or at least who have DIR gear) who were not safe, and I have chosen not to dive with them again. This can especially apply as the popularity of DIR increases and there are more DIR divers, I think there will be more who get the card (or provisional) and then do not keep up their skills (or who sneak beneath the "safe attitude" detection abilities of instructors)

For me, a buddy being DIR/GUE trained is just the beginning. You still have to dive with them and get comfortable with each person.

That said, i have found it very very easy to dive with other DIR divers (Rjack and his wife, TSandM) with very very few adjustments to anything.

 

[JeffG]

I have also dived with "DIR" people (or at least who have DIR gear) who were not safe

Strokes with cool gear. Thats what I call them.

 

[Vayu]

Everyone who calls anyone a stroke is probably a stroke.

 

[rjack321]

That said, i have found it very very easy to dive with other DIR divers (Rjack and his wife, TSandM) with very very few adjustments to anything.

Awww gee, I'm feeling all warm and fuzzy inside now. :10:

Seriously, instabuddy and cave diving is a bad combo. Throw in a non-overhead diver and its a recipe for disaster. The fact that this has happened "multiple times" should be a wake up call PF.

The fact that you had team seperation during your cave class! Should be grounds for a serious :no wag. That is bad, very bad.

You seemed to have had an unfit diver (#3) who couldn't keep up, and a unaware diver (#1). And you in the middle unable to signal the unaware. In this case, #1 should have failed the class, and you should buddy up for the remainder of the exit with diver #3. AND there's nothing which says you need to be turning on 3rds. If you were diving a spring your concerns about exit gas were probably unwarrented. A siphon is serious business and you should not have been training in one.

 

[PerroneFord]

Ummmm,

Wow. I do't remember saying anything about a siphon.

Anyway, team seperations happen in class all the time. I'd wager there are serious team seperations and miscommunications in the average Fundies and Cave1/Tech1 classes as well. That's why it's CLASS. You make mistakes, you learn.

I have not had any instabuddies in a true cave scenario. Not something I do. Of course people have assumed a lot in this thread, and I know that's going to happen.

As for things happening "multiple times" there is no need for a wake-up call. I am very aware of what happened in each scenario, why, and have dealt with the issue in a manner that was ageeable to me.

Sometimes I envy the DIR divers here on SB. It seems like all of you have marvelous DIR communities near you, and a ready supply of like-minded divers to dive with. I am not so lucky. I do my dives with a variety of divers, very few in overheads. Many of those early dives where mistakes were made (solo ascent, seperation in the river, etc.) were made before I was aware of DIR protocol. I've learned from those.

I had a VERY enjoyable dive last Sunday in a cavern with an NACD diver and Scubaboard member. We did two overhead dives, worked on skills, and things went smoothly. That is the diving I enjoy. Last Saturday, I got to dive with a couple of my DIR regular buddies, and that was also very enjoyable. Tomorrow I will do a dive with an NACD Intro diver, and we will likely not even do an overhead. Saturday I hope to be in a cavern with two NACD trained cavern divers.

The point is that while we would all like to have DIR divers to dive with, sometimes we don't, and we must adjust. Or simply refuse to dive with people.