A sticky wicket...

[Vayu]

How about, 3 divers in a river. One swims off into the darkness. The guy in the middle realizes the guy from behind is gone. Diver in the middle and in the back do ascents. Guy in front continues a solo river dive

 

[Ben_ca]

I'm sorry but it seems silly to keep discussing this here... this should be moved outside of the DIR forum.


Rule # 1 applies.

I dive with non-DIR guys to help them see how we do things and be a good mentor. But when I do, do I go to the bunny slopes or black diamond?

Slow, medium and fast diver? Re sequence with slow in front. PF you said it's happened to you multiple times? That's way too many times.

 

[PerroneFord]

I'm sorry but it seems silly to keep discussing this here... this should be moved outside of the DIR forum.


Rule # 1 applies.

I dive with non-DIR guys to help them see how we do things and be a good mentor. But when I do, do I go to the bunny slopes or black diamond?

Slow, medium and fast diver? Re sequence with slow in front. PF you said it's happened to you multiple times? That's way too many times.

A couple of points:

1. I mentioned the thread could be killed a while back. I think we've gotten what we need.

2. The dive referenced in the scenario was not arrange by me. It was an instabuddy scenario. I did the best I could under the circumstances I was in,

3. Black Diamond? Have you been to Ginny Springs or Blue Grotto? Guys snorkel into the cavern at Ginnie Springs, and OW classes are conducted at both Ginnie and Blue Grotto. These are beginner/OW sites. Obviously both have caverns, but OW divers frequent both for better or worse and are allowed to do so per rules of the establishments. Thus you will find a natural mix of OW and overhead divers at both sites, in the caverns. Either you can deal with it, or stick your head in the sand.

4. Regarding slow, medium, fast divers in the cave. I was aware of the optimal team config. It was a class scenario and the instructors set the order each dive to illustrate a point. Not something I could change to make convenient.

 

[PerroneFord]

How about, 3 divers in a river. One swims off into the darkness. The guy in the middle realizes the guy from behind is gone. Diver in the middle and in the back do ascents. Guy in front continues a solo river dive

LOL! I forgot about that one! I was diver 3, and you were diver 2. Good memory. That was almost 2 years ago.

 

[BabyDuck]

wow. this isn't a dir response, but a cave response.

i would flash & flash & flash diver 1 until i had his/her attention, then thumb, hoping to catch up with 3. i sure would hope we had covered light signals and hand signals in our (likely nonexistant) pre-dive brief...

on a related note, what is it with non-techie or non-overhead divers and calling a dive? i had one thumb a dive last week, i returned the thumb, then he kept diving for another 15 minutes... i've also thumbed dives, been given a blank look, and then been left. so what about an ignored thumb, no matter who threw it?

 

[lamont]

Which one of them will cause you the most pain and guilt if they die? I'd stick with that one...

If you don't care about either of them and you've got gas left you might as well go off and solo dive...

 

[Nailer99]

I'd like to present a scenario and get your thoughts on it.

Environment: Overhead. Good flow, sand bottom, consider unsiltable. Penetration distance less than 75 linear ft.
Team: Group of 3 (not team of 3)
Diver 1. Experienced, but not overhead trained
Diver 2. Overhead trained.
Diver 3. Relatively comfortable, not overhead trained.
Depth: ~40ft
Dive time: ~40 minutes

Scenario:

Group of three divers enter an overhead environment. Other divers are already in the overhead but are not with your group of 3. At approximately 40 minutes into the dive, diver 3 begins to exit the overhead as other teams are also leaving the environment. Diver 3 does not signal the group. Diver 2 recognizes that Diver 3 is leaving and attempts to signal Diver 1. Diver 1 is not prepared yet to leave. Diver 2 attempts to halt Diver 3, but Diver 3 is already swimming out and is in a group so can't be signaled.


Question:

As diver 2, what would you do now? Attempt to swim after Diver 3 and abandon Diver 1? Stay with Diver 1 in the overhead and hope that Diver 3 makes the exit and ascent safely? Something else?

And lets not get bogged down in what SHOULD have happened prior to this moment. I'd like to reserve comments to just what we know from this description.

Thanks

I'm not overhead trained or DIR, but I would swim to diver 1 and give him the turn around, "we're leaving now" signal, and then exit, looking to catch up with diver 1, so that I could beat him over the head with an empty tank once we were out of the water. Am I wrong? Or is this one of those "no right answer" kinda puzzles?

My reasoning is that diver 3 is headed TOWARDS safety, and at least near other divers who might be able to render assistance should, god forbid, something inevitable happen, whereas diver 1 is furthest from safety. You state that diver 1 "is not prepared to leave" does that mean that he's refusing to turn and end the dive, or that he's unaware that his group is disolving? If Diver 1 is actually refusing to turn the dive, I would abandon him and swim out with the other divers, and use the tank that I beat diver 3 senseless with to do the same to diver 1.

How'd I do?

 

[Nailer99]

Ordinarily, I'd be right there with you on worst case, but I am describing scenarios I witness regularly at the local holes.

I think as people who subscribe to DIR we know we do things "differently". I think discussions such as this might help non-DIR divers understand both the how and the why in doing it differently. Present a common enough scenario, let it escalate into a minor problem, and then ask how would a DIR diver provide a solution to this problem, and perhaps how would a DIR diver have prevented it in the first place.

I think we are all in agreement that issue 1 is entering the overhead with non-overhead trained divers. Yet, we see it all the time, and in some cases like at Ginnie or Blue Grotto, it is tacitly approved by the landowner.

I believe that a DIR pre-dive briefing SADDDDD or whatever the new Moniker is now, would also address the matters of team order, communication, and when and how to procede when the dive is terminated either on gas or on time. I am not including the dive being thumbed, because that did not occur in the scenario I put forth.

I do most of my diving with non-DIR trained divers. In many cases, they have overhead training from other agencies. I have rarely had a problem with divers trained by ANY overhead agency. I have had numerous problems with divers untrained for overheads. So why dive overheads at all? Great question. I would wager that many of us have done some dives beyond training at some point in our diving careers. I know I penetrated overheads before taking cavern/cave training. I did not violate depth though.

There is a push right now with CCR divers and cavers to establish some protocols for "mixed diving". Meaning dives shared between CCR divers and OC divers. Similarly, I think that we as a DIR or DIR-minded community could establish some ideas for how to have fun and safe dives with either instabuddies, or friends who do not subscribe to DIR thinking. Do we discount making that cave dive with the guy who has an NACD full cave card because he hasn't taken fundies? Do we refuse to do the dive to 100ft with a diver who has 5 years of good experience and an AOW card because he hasn't taken Triox?

Must we only dive with DIR trained divers, or can we dive with anyone.

I like you. May there be peace between our tribes, someday.
Seriously, I lurk here a lot, and I bet many other non- DIR types do, too. I'm curious about how you people do things on the cube. I've made some friendly overtures with some local DIR types, and we're even talking about diving together some time. I think rule # 1 is really bad PR for your kind- good diving is where you find it, and it doesn't matter what C-card you're carrying. I do admire the .....thoroughness of the divers w/ Fundies training, though.

 

[PfcAJ]

Rule #1 referes to unsafe divers. Regardless if you claim DIR or not, if you are not safe, Option #1 occures. Period. How far we take this depends on the type of diving we're doing.

This being said, I dive with brand spankin' new open water divers sometimes. We stick to a plan, have fun, and come home. This is not unsafe. It can become unsafe, of course, at which point the thumb comes out.

Regardless of your certifying agency, credentials, whatever, I won't dive in a cave/cavern with you unless we do a nice easy "checkout" in open water. I expect the same to be asked of me.

I feel that an issue that fuels the "holier than thou" stigma associated with DIR types is that (more or less), we like diving together. When I dive with my regular buddy/buddies, its the same every time. We share a common knowlege base, with common procedures and such. I enjoy that familiarity, and its founded in the DIR principals.

 

[Nailer99]

That's cool, and fair. I like diving with my buddies who I know, and trust, too. I know my SAC is higher when I dive with new instabuddies. I mean, I get it. I thought rule # 1 was "non- DIR divers?"