A sticky wicket...

[Web Monkey]

I'd like to present a scenario and get your thoughts on it.

Environment: Overhead. Good flow, sand bottom, consider unsiltable. Penetration distance less than 75 linear ft.
Team: Group of 3 (not team of 3)
Diver 1. Experienced, but not overhead trained
Diver 2. Overhead trained.
Diver 3. Relatively comfortable, not overhead trained.
Depth: ~40ft
Dive time: ~40 minutes

Scenario:

Group of three divers enter an overhead environment. Other divers are already in the overhead but are not with your group of 3. At approximately 40 minutes into the dive, diver 3 begins to exit the overhead as other teams are also leaving the environment. Diver 3 does not signal the group. Diver 2 recognizes that Diver 3 is leaving and attempts to signal Diver 1. Diver 1 is not prepared yet to leave. Diver 2 attempts to halt Diver 3, but Diver 3 is already swimming out and is in a group so can't be signaled.

This doesn't seem to have much to do with DIR, or even diving with a good buddy.

First, I'd like to say that I'm not DIR, but if my buddy ever took off and left me in a cave, it would be our last dive together unless he had an excuse that involved horrible pain, a potentially fatal medical problem or diminished mental capacity.

That said, Diver 3 is on his way out, and will presumably be OK. Diver 1 has lost track of reality and will probably die if left alone, so I'd let Diver 3 continue on, then go back and drag Diver 1 out by any means necessary.

Terry

 

[Leejnd]

I'd like to present a scenario and get your thoughts on it. -snip-
Scenario:

Group of three divers enter an overhead environment. Other divers are already in the overhead but are not with your group of 3. At approximately 40 minutes into the dive, diver 3 begins to exit the overhead as other teams are also leaving the environment. Diver 3 does not signal the group. Diver 2 recognizes that Diver 3 is leaving and attempts to signal Diver 1. Diver 1 is not prepared yet to leave. Diver 2 attempts to halt Diver 3, but Diver 3 is already swimming out and is in a group so can't be signaled.

-snip-

I've been reading this entire thread with interest. I'm not DIR (yet), although I did attend MHK's Fundies orientation. There have been some great responses to this, and I think it's spawned some excellent discussion. Unfortunately, I haven't yet seen an answer to MY predominant question about this scenario.

The one thing that's had me bugged from the beginning is this part: "Diver 1 is not prepared yet to leave." What exactly does that mean? How does diver #2 KNOW that diver #1 is not prepared to leave? Does it mean that diver #1 is aware that diver #3 is bolting, but just doesn't want to go? Or is diver #1 simply plowing on ahead without any knowledge of what's going on behind him?

If you KNOW that diver #1 isn't "prepared to leave", one must assume that he has somehow communicated that to you...meaning that he must be aware that YOU want to leave. In which case the rule of thumbing the dive should prevail, right? I mean, if you signaled to diver #1 that you wanted to leave, wouldn't that mean you thumbed the dive? And diver #1 is...what...ignoring that? If that's the case, then the hell with him...I'm following diver #3, because I thumbed the dive and diver #1 ignored me. And diver #1 can find a new buddy from this day forward, for having ignored one of the golden rules of diving.

If, on the other hand, you don't actually KNOW that diver #1 is "not prepared to leave" -- if you're just assuming that he isn't, because he appears to not know what is going on behind him, and is simply plowing on ahead in oblivion to his group. If that's the case, then I would follow diver #1 and attempt to thumb the dive, because (as others have pointed out) at least diver #3 is headed for OW and has others around him, and is in a safer situation than diver #1 who is moving forward into the OE all alone (I presume). And, provided diver #1 pays attention to me when I thumb it and follows, diver #1 MIGHT get to dive with me again, after learning the meaning of "team" and the importance of being aware of where all your teammates are.

Does anyone else see it this way?

 

[Vayu]

As a local Florida diver I can attest that there are unique scenarios occuring in cave country. The best anyone can do is try to communicate underwater and try to dive with friends. I salute Perrone for actually admitting to things like this and trying to create meaningful dialogue about them.

Now let me say that most divers in Florida have been in overhead without overhead training. I am just letting people know. I think all of us on this forum have been in situations at one time or another that made us rethink the way we pursue diving. Accidents DO happen and guess what they happen to DIR divers as well. Even the best of teams can experience a breakdown at certain times. Its just the way of the world.

Now read the original post and consider all 3 divers as overhead trained. There are lessons to be learned about communication and I submit that one never stops learning underwater. Thanks to everyone for posting in this thread because it is certainly an interesting read.

I would follow diver #1 and attempt to thumb the dive, because (as others have pointed out) at least diver #3 is headed for OW and has others around him, and is in a safer situation than diver #1 who is moving forward into the OE all alone.

Taking into account everyone who has said this situation shouldn't happen... I think if the diver in the middle could only follow one diver, then they would be obliged to follow the diver in distress. The diver in the lead should be communicating with the team even if they are in the lead. They should notice a problem. I am never going to go DEEPER into overhead when my friend is having a problem and needs to get out. There is no response to a diver calling a dive except full support. The diver in the lead has effectively isolated themselves by lack of communication. This means the diver in front is a reckless maniac that you shouldn't be following into a cave That or he is like some of the University instructors around here that don't acknowledge ascent or distress signals.

 

[Ben_ca]

My DIR answer is:

No Communication=No Team=No Dive

The worst thing you can get when trying to communicate is a blank stare... Say yes or no just don't sit there like you do not see me.... I'll assume you've gone into a coma and I'll toxing diver rescue you... wrap you up in kelp drag your sorry butt onto the beach in front of all the tourists eating their $100 dinners on cannery row and you'll look like a Dork!

 

[rjack321]

Anyway, team seperations happen in class all the time. I'd wager there are serious team seperations and miscommunications in the average Fundies and Cave1/Tech1 classes as well. That's why it's CLASS. You make mistakes, you learn.

Actually no they don't happen in other classes - at least they didn't happen in my Cave1. And I don't think they happened in Limeyx's either. If they had happened, I don't think my instructor would have brought us back into the overhead. We would have been in remedial DIRF or whatever. Our communication/awareness deficiencies were highlighted during s-drills and valve drills in the cenote, that was slightly forgivable. Seperating in class would have been an instant F.

You've got 10 to 21W HIDs. I was expected to do a 1/4 flat turn within about 10 seconds of that light going missing. Communication begins with awareness and in your scenario you've got limited awareness and then a breakdown in communication. One alone is bad news, two at the same time is a snowball building into a CF.

I recognize that you are hampered by differently trained divers. But, these situations are happening more than once. If these people are actually cave trained I would not dive with them again. If they are not cave trained I would not dive with them in an overhead.

This may limit your buddies to just a couple. That is the price you pay for having a good buddy, not everyone can/will be one.

You cannot train in awareness. You cannot train good communication. That was the responsibility of their cave instructors. These attributes can be cultivated, but I don't think its your responsiblity to do this. You have to protect yourself here and refuse to dive with unaware/non-communicative buddies.

My 2C

 

[limeyx]

I've been reading this entire thread with interest. I'm not DIR (yet), although I did attend MHK's Fundies orientation. There have been some great responses to this, and I think it's spawned some excellent discussion. Unfortunately, I haven't yet seen an answer to MY predominant question about this scenario.

The one thing that's had me bugged from the beginning is this part: "Diver 1 is not prepared yet to leave." What exactly does that mean? How does diver #2 KNOW that diver #1 is not prepared to leave? Does it mean that diver #1 is aware that diver #3 is bolting, but just doesn't want to go? Or is diver #1 simply plowing on ahead without any knowledge of what's going on behind him?
....
Does anyone else see it this way?

I agree that that is definitely unclear. if the dive was thumbed and #1 continues -- that's the last dive I do with that person.

if they just haven't noticed there are no lights and plow on ahead on a real dive, then that might (might) be fixable -- in a class, i would expect them to go OOA pretty darned quickly to reinforce the point.

 

[limeyx]

.....
Accidents DO happen and guess what they happen to DIR divers as well. Even the best of teams can experience a breakdown at certain times. Its just the way of the world.
...

Of course accidents do happen to DIR divers, but the GUE training tries to make sure such accidents are extremely minimized, and are due to simple bad luck/fortune, rather than poor planning or poor dive execution (obviously other agencies presumably have similar goals, I just happen to think GUE does it "better")

 

[limeyx]

Actually no they don't happen in other classes - at least they didn't happen in my Cave1. And I don't think they happened in Limeyx's either. If they had happened, I don't think my instructor would have brought us back into the overhead. We would have been in remedial DIRF or whatever. Our communication/awareness deficiencies were highlighted during s-drills and valve drills in the cenote, that was slightly forgivable. Seperating in class would have been an instant F.
...
My 2C

Definitely no separation in our cave class. One time I was a few kicks ahead of where I should have been, got a gentle "wave" from team-mate behind and slowed down.

We were told to always be within arms reach of the line and approx 6-10 (max) feet behind the buddy in front if the vis was good, and obviously closer if the vis started to drop.

While the emphasis was partly on enjoying the cave (on the way in anyway , safety and following correct protocols was always far more important and had we not worked well as a team, we would definitely have been in some serious remedial class.

This goes for *all* dives -- not just cave dives.

 

[TSandM]

I barely have any overhead experience at all, but the dives I did last week in Mexico made me think. I did two days with Danny Riordan, who is a GUE instructor, and with KMD, who is GUE (and other DIR) trained, and with my husband. On those dives, pretty much ANYTHING that happened to a light other than either a steady beam forward or a methodical "sightseeing" sweep would cause Danny to whip his head around, and actually all of us were pretty good about that.

The two dives we did with another guide were different. At one point, I had my light swinging back and forth in an "attention" signal to the guide for over a full minute before he turned his head. (I was trying to send forward the signal that one of our group had reached thirds.)

That's a ridiculously tiny sample to make any conclusions from, but I wonder if GUE really POUNDS the awareness/communication thing harder than others do? I know that, from my beginning with Fundies, awareness of the team and responsiveness to signals has been very, very heavily stressed and evaluated. It's one of the places where I have a hard time living up to what's expected, because I'm given to blonde moments underwater.

Just a thought . . . Maybe other people just aren't as acutely aware as we are taught to be?

 

[rjack321]

I barely have any overhead experience at all, but the dives I did last week in Mexico made me think. I did two days with Danny Riordan, who is a GUE instructor, and with KMD, who is GUE (and other DIR) trained, and with my husband. On those dives, pretty much ANYTHING that happened to a light other than either a steady beam forward or a methodical "sightseeing" sweep would cause Danny to whip his head around, and actually all of us were pretty good about that.

The two dives we did with another guide were different. At one point, I had my light swinging back and forth in an "attention" signal to the guide for over a full minute before he turned his head. (I was trying to send forward the signal that one of our group had reached thirds.)

That's a ridiculously tiny sample to make any conclusions from, but I wonder if GUE really POUNDS the awareness/communication thing harder than others do? I know that, from my beginning with Fundies, awareness of the team and responsiveness to signals has been very, very heavily stressed and evaluated. It's one of the places where I have a hard time living up to what's expected, because I'm given to blonde moments underwater.

Just a thought . . . Maybe other people just aren't as acutely aware as we are taught to be?

My Cave1 buddy had good trim and generally good line skills. However he did not pass for lack of awareness. One or two missed signals in 5 days of diving would have been forgivable. I'm sure I was guilty of that. Signalling for a full minute esp. if it occurred later in the week would have been a huge space cadet moment. I'm positive it would have been quite difficult to pass with such an event on your "record".