A sticky wicket...

[jeckyll]

If diver 3 is swimming off and 'exiting' with another group and diver 2 notices, perhaps it was time for diver 2 to turn and thumb the dive.

*shrug* I'm not sure if that's DIR or not, to me it seems like common sense.

 

[MHK]

The question is being posed because I am interested in how a DIR trained diver would handle the scenario. We, as DIR divers, are put into scenarios where we dive with non-dir divers. Whether it be on a shallow reef, or on a wreck penetration, or even just at someplace like Blue Grotto, where even going down to the rope at 50ft puts you in a cavern scenario.

Yes, I know that DIR pre-dive protocol and even before that, would have prevented this in the first place. I'm trying to get past that.

I agree that we dive with non-DIR divers often as a way to introduce them to our protocols, but that doesn't mean doing so in an overhead environment in the absence of any OE training It's one thing to dive with a non-DIR diver on a 60' nice and easy reef, but taking a group of 3 into an OE is an entirely different matter which simply doesn't have a DIR solution associated with it, other then the one you already know: It should be prevented before it happens..

Regards

 

[PerroneFord]

If diver 3 is swimming off and 'exiting' with another group and diver 2 notices, perhaps it was time for diver 2 to turn and thumb the dive.

*shrug* I'm not sure if that's DIR or not, to me it seems like common sense.

What do you do with diver 3? Just leave them?

 

[Warren_L]

Probably not the answer you're looking for, but assuming proper DIR overhead training, diver 2 would have called the dive before it even got into the penetration stage. Remember, proper training also includes the proper attitude.

 

[DIR-Atlanta]

I know this is not the answer you are looking for, but the DIR solution to this problem is to exercise Option #1 - "Don't dive". The fact that you have a diver in the group who is not trained or equipped for overhead means that you should restrict yourself to the open water area only. If the other folks won't agree to that, then you let them do their dive while you sit out. To do otherwise is inviting trouble.

This scenario illustrates perfectly why it is so important to have everyone in your group on the same page as to the dive plan and any possible contingencies.

 

[jeckyll]

What do you do with diver 3? Just leave them?

No, I would ensure that I gathered diver 1 and got back and hooked up with diver 3 if at all possible (if they are freaking and shooting out of there that may not be possible, but I'd be preparing for a rescue at that point. That might seem severe, but I'd be ready to assist ASAP. Someone swimming off for whatever reason, is a great concern to me).

Once back together, I'd get both of their attention and then ensure that both 3 & 1 saw me _again_ thumb the dive. The debrief would be interesting

 

[PerroneFord]

Warren L. Agreed and understood. As I said. I am not addressing what the situation SHOULD be, but rather what the situation is.

A bit more on this:

In my dives over the past year, I have been in the role of all 3 divers in this scenario. I have been the diver who missed an exit signal (early in my training and I think my awareness is different now!), I have been the diver who left a group of 3 and ascended alone, and I have been diver #2 who was trying to keep a group of three glued together, including my full cave class 1000ft back in Peacock.

At the local sites, especially blue grotto and ginnie, I see variations on this scenario all the time. Group of OW divers in cavern situations without any team protocol and with miscommunication happening. I watched it last Sunday at Ginnie as a group went down to the grate.

Just wondering.

 

[limeyx]

What do you do with diver 3? Just leave them?

Well, ignoring the non-DIRness and "how you got there"

think what's happening -- diver3 has taken off for the exit, right? so they are getting closer to to open water.

Diver 1 is in the lead (right?) so going deeper into the cave.
Obviously it cannot be the right solution to go after diver3 and let diver1 continue to penetrate, without at least trying to get diver1 to exit the cave.

if I somehow awoke in a daze and found myself in this situation, I would do my absolute best to get diver1 to exit, even to the point of trying to physically turn them around toward the exit etc.

if they still refused, i would give them the "you're broken" sign and get the heck after diver3 who seems to be bolting for the exit.

Assuming I survived, I'd resolve not to go cave-diving drunk in future....

 

[JeffG]

Warren L. Agreed and understood. As I said. I am not addressing what the situation SHOULD be, but rather what the situation is.

Its all about choices about relative safety.

Follow #3 because by the description he would be the weakest link.

Give thumb to #1...and follow 3.

#3 is showing bad judgment, but perhaps not bad attitude.
#1 is showing bad attitude. It might not be the nicest place to invoke Option #1, but if he doesn't want to support the thumb, how much other trust do you have?

 

[PerroneFord]

No, I would ensure that I gathered diver 1 and got back and hooked up with diver 3 if at all possible (if they are freaking and shooting out of there that may not be possible, but I'd be preparing for a rescue at that point. That might seem severe, but I'd be ready to assist ASAP. Someone swimming off for whatever reason, is a great concern to me).

Once back together, I'd get both of their attention and then ensure that both 3 & 1 saw me _again_ thumb the dive. The debrief would be interesting

I like your answer. Seems pretty reasonable. One thing I do not see us discussing on the DIR forum is what to do when things go wrong. Even with great protocols, and skills, things DO go wrong. Pretending they won't is inviting trouble in my view.

I just tried to provide a scenario I see regularly, and see how a DIR diver might view it, and how they would handle the mess.