OP
PerroneFord
Contributor
I like the answers coming in now. JeffG and Limex give two well reasoned responses, that indicate opposite actions...
A sticky wicket...
- Thread starter PerroneFord
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SparticleBrane
Contributor
Who says they know where to go once you give them the thumb? Is this cave or cavern?
Perrone: No offence, but IMO that kind of mess shouldn't occur more than once.
After debrief and discussion that problem should be solved. For good. Either through adjustment of skill or attitudes or simply by not diving with those people again
After debrief and discussion that problem should be solved. For good. Either through adjustment of skill or attitudes or simply by not diving with those people again
Carribeandiver
Guest
The lesson I learned here is to stick to your guns and either do not dive with others who do not agree to strictly follow a dive plan or thumb a dive if, after agreeing, one or more divers depart from the plan. Easier said than done, I must admit.
In the scenario, PF stated the plan was to dive for 40 minutes. Diver # 3 turned after 40 minutes. Could it be he assumed everyone was on the same clock? Could it be he was too inexperienced or untrained to know how to signal divers 1 & 2 to be sure everyone turned together?
Diver 3 at least was with another group, he was not alone. Diver 2, seeing this departing diver, had an obligation to signal diver 1 and divers 1 & 2 had an obligation to thumb the dive once they learned of diver 3's actions.
Therefore, diver 3 would have exited first but not alone, divers 1 & 2 should have exited shortly thereafter, together.
This type of scenario is a lot more common than we care to remember. It is a DIR lesson because it reminds us why we all decided to look for a better, safer diving philosophy.
And why did people get so upset and proclaim, this is not DIR, this is not the correct forum. So what! Answer the question, at least rhetorically, we all can learn from hypothets.
And PF, minus 9 points for the audacity to start a discussion not DIR in the DIR forum.
In the scenario, PF stated the plan was to dive for 40 minutes. Diver # 3 turned after 40 minutes. Could it be he assumed everyone was on the same clock? Could it be he was too inexperienced or untrained to know how to signal divers 1 & 2 to be sure everyone turned together?
Diver 3 at least was with another group, he was not alone. Diver 2, seeing this departing diver, had an obligation to signal diver 1 and divers 1 & 2 had an obligation to thumb the dive once they learned of diver 3's actions.
Therefore, diver 3 would have exited first but not alone, divers 1 & 2 should have exited shortly thereafter, together.
This type of scenario is a lot more common than we care to remember. It is a DIR lesson because it reminds us why we all decided to look for a better, safer diving philosophy.
And why did people get so upset and proclaim, this is not DIR, this is not the correct forum. So what! Answer the question, at least rhetorically, we all can learn from hypothets.
And PF, minus 9 points for the audacity to start a discussion not DIR in the DIR forum.
limeyx
Guest
SparticleBrane:
Since you are always following a line in cave or cavern, then they go "the other way along the line"
of course, if you start getting all spun around then you might mix up the ways (which is why referencing the line is so so critical in cave diving where you might *not* know the way out -- undoubtedly not a good feeling)
SparticleBrane
Contributor
Who says there's a line?limeyx:
OP
PerroneFord
Contributor
For the purposes of this discussion we can assume there is a line to follow and the line leads all the way to open water. We can even assume that the diver does not become lost and no harm befalls them. This is the predominant thing that happens in places I visit like Morrison, Ginnie, and Blue Grotto.
SparticleBrane
Contributor
Sorry, I was assuming worst case.
OP
PerroneFord
Contributor
Ordinarily, I'd be right there with you on worst case, but I am describing scenarios I witness regularly at the local holes.
I think as people who subscribe to DIR we know we do things "differently". I think discussions such as this might help non-DIR divers understand both the how and the why in doing it differently. Present a common enough scenario, let it escalate into a minor problem, and then ask how would a DIR diver provide a solution to this problem, and perhaps how would a DIR diver have prevented it in the first place.
I think we are all in agreement that issue 1 is entering the overhead with non-overhead trained divers. Yet, we see it all the time, and in some cases like at Ginnie or Blue Grotto, it is tacitly approved by the landowner.
I believe that a DIR pre-dive briefing SADDDDD or whatever the new Moniker is now, would also address the matters of team order, communication, and when and how to procede when the dive is terminated either on gas or on time. I am not including the dive being thumbed, because that did not occur in the scenario I put forth.
I do most of my diving with non-DIR trained divers. In many cases, they have overhead training from other agencies. I have rarely had a problem with divers trained by ANY overhead agency. I have had numerous problems with divers untrained for overheads. So why dive overheads at all? Great question. I would wager that many of us have done some dives beyond training at some point in our diving careers. I know I penetrated overheads before taking cavern/cave training. I did not violate depth though.
There is a push right now with CCR divers and cavers to establish some protocols for "mixed diving". Meaning dives shared between CCR divers and OC divers. Similarly, I think that we as a DIR or DIR-minded community could establish some ideas for how to have fun and safe dives with either instabuddies, or friends who do not subscribe to DIR thinking. Do we discount making that cave dive with the guy who has an NACD full cave card because he hasn't taken fundies? Do we refuse to do the dive to 100ft with a diver who has 5 years of good experience and an AOW card because he hasn't taken Triox?
Must we only dive with DIR trained divers, or can we dive with anyone.
I think as people who subscribe to DIR we know we do things "differently". I think discussions such as this might help non-DIR divers understand both the how and the why in doing it differently. Present a common enough scenario, let it escalate into a minor problem, and then ask how would a DIR diver provide a solution to this problem, and perhaps how would a DIR diver have prevented it in the first place.
I think we are all in agreement that issue 1 is entering the overhead with non-overhead trained divers. Yet, we see it all the time, and in some cases like at Ginnie or Blue Grotto, it is tacitly approved by the landowner.
I believe that a DIR pre-dive briefing SADDDDD or whatever the new Moniker is now, would also address the matters of team order, communication, and when and how to procede when the dive is terminated either on gas or on time. I am not including the dive being thumbed, because that did not occur in the scenario I put forth.
I do most of my diving with non-DIR trained divers. In many cases, they have overhead training from other agencies. I have rarely had a problem with divers trained by ANY overhead agency. I have had numerous problems with divers untrained for overheads. So why dive overheads at all? Great question. I would wager that many of us have done some dives beyond training at some point in our diving careers. I know I penetrated overheads before taking cavern/cave training. I did not violate depth though.
There is a push right now with CCR divers and cavers to establish some protocols for "mixed diving". Meaning dives shared between CCR divers and OC divers. Similarly, I think that we as a DIR or DIR-minded community could establish some ideas for how to have fun and safe dives with either instabuddies, or friends who do not subscribe to DIR thinking. Do we discount making that cave dive with the guy who has an NACD full cave card because he hasn't taken fundies? Do we refuse to do the dive to 100ft with a diver who has 5 years of good experience and an AOW card because he hasn't taken Triox?
Must we only dive with DIR trained divers, or can we dive with anyone.
DIR-Atlanta
Contributor
That right there should tell you something.PerroneFord:
No offense intended to JeffG and Limeyx - their intentions are noble in suggesting possible ways to deal with the situation, but they can't both be right. This is basically a no-win situation if it happens in the water, which is why it needs to be discussed and sorted out before the dive ever even starts. And if you don't have 100% confidence in your "groupmates" to stick to the agreed upon dive plan, then your best option is to stay out of the water altogether.
(I apologize for not seeing the "shades of grey" here, but in my mind, there are none).
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