A question to an incident

[Dadvocate]

Hi, Lead Turn!

Okay, not knowing that the problem was an inflator hose being disconnected seems logical given how much we don’t know from the OP. My only response to that would be that if I were in that situation and had control of her in some fashion, I’d try to get her BCD inflated anyway, thus finding out what the problem was.

On your other point saying that the DM and the dad might have controlled her enough to remove the BCD, how was this done? I’m not asking you directly. I am hoping that Skeeter will step up and provide something more tangible so that we can discuss this case factually. It is hard to say if Skeeter can do this to be honest. Since he says the divers had 22 minutes on the dive and had to be called back, they would not have been on the surface to see this happening. And if Skeeter was among them, well it would seem that all we have is a second-hand account anyway, which would be disappointing to be honest.

Slightly tangential to this point, do you recommend that two divers approach a panicked diver at the same time in this fashion? I only ask because this was discouraged in my class also, given that the situation could escalate adding more than one troubled diver to the mix (say she yanks the reg out of her father’s mouth).

If you do have some experience with two divers approaching a distressed diver in a safe way, I’d be very interested in that technique as a general safety measure. Again, if all the other divers were already below, that means it was daddy, the DM, and the boat as the witnesses to this incident, I am guessing. With only two viable divers in the water, I would think it a bad idea to have both approach her at the same time.

Assuming the DM was the only certified person to do the rescue in this case, wouldn’t it have been more prudent not to get him involved? Again, I read this as a case where the dad was not all that experienced either (not having a good buddy system is a big clue), so he might not have been the best help in this case. Still the logistics of two divers controlling a panicked diver seems hard to imagine, other than through brut force. If that is the case, an oral inflation should have (could have) been a very reasonable approach to get her calmed. Then the two of them could have guided her back to the boat together. I realize I am way out there in the land of guesses also.

Please, Skeeter. This incident could be very helpful on more then one front if you added more detail. Please help us out if you can.

Cheers!

 

[String]

Assuming the DM was the only certified person to do the rescue in this case, wouldnÃÕ it have been more prudent not to get him involved?

If he's the only one trained in rescue he HAS to get involved or its going to get far far uglier. If you know what you're doing and are able to assist you help.

If that is the case, an oral inflation should have (could have) been a very reasonable approach to get her calmed

If you've got a thrashing panicing diver you try getting close enough and staying close enough for long enough to orally inflate without getting your nose broken....
Especially if its one of those awful BCs which has an oral inflation "tube" hidden away in a pocket.

 

[Web Monkey]

What responsibility does a DM have to ensure that anyone is properly prepared to enter the water regardless of whether or not the diver is certified?

The instructor is responsible for uncertified divers (I assume you mean students). OTher than that, it depends on how the diver was sold.

When diving off our shop's boat the DiveCon makes sure everybody's tank is on, and the BC is inflated just before entry (actually watch it inflate, not just listen for the noise) and the diver has test-breathed their regs. This means that at the very least, they're going to float when they hit the water and can breathe, which would have completely eliminated the problem the OP reported.

Other boats are different. Some offer nothing but a ride, some offer "valet service."

I assume the process would have required the DM getting control of her (ostensibly using an alternate arm pull or perhaps ascending from behind). We learned techniques for this in our rescue diver course. From there he could have grabbed the back of her BCD as we were taught, and then the DM could have inflated his or her own BCD to get this girl above the water line (the perceived place of safety mentioned earlier).

Paniced diver = dive over. If I have to rescue someone, the dive is over. I never give anybody more than once chance to kill themselves on my watch.

Also, I see no problem with returning to shore, especially if the diver was having any mental or physical issues. It's much safer to have someone weirded out on land than on water.

Terry

 

[Dadvocate]

String

If he's the only one trained in rescue he HAS to get involved or its going to get far far uglier. If you know what you're doing and are able to assist you help.

Of course, I totally agree. I am assuming the DM would get involved. The issue is whether or not the DM would enlist the help from the father to resolve the issue. That is the “him” I mean. Sorry for the confusing pronoun.

If you've got a thrashing panicing diver you try getting close enough and staying close enough for long enough to orally inflate without getting your nose broken....
Especially if its one of those awful BCs which has an oral inflation "tube" hidden away in a pocket.

This is a good point. Of course reconnecting the hose would be easier than oral inflation if indeed the DM had control of the diver. If not, I can see where “dumping” the gear might be necessary, safer, and easiest.

I understand the broken nose bit. I got a good pop on one practice session in class. It was a clear reminder of the need to keep a good grip.

Web Monkey (Terry)

Paniced diver = dive over. If I have to rescue someone, the dive is over. I never give anybody more than once chance to kill themselves on my watch.

Also, I see no problem with returning to shore, especially if the diver was having any mental or physical issues. It's much safer to have someone weirded out on land than on water.

Terry

I don’t have any problem with that decision at all. The part you are quoting deals with how to get control of the panicked diver so that she can be brought back to the boat safely. Calling the dive at the point when she and the others are aboard seems a very reasonable thing to do under the circumstances.

Cheers!

 

[LeadTurn_SD]

Hi, Lead Turn!

Okay, not knowing that the problem was an inflator hose being disconnected seems logical given how much we donÃÕ know from the OP. My only response to that would be that if I were in that situation and had control of her in some fashion, IÃÅ try to get her BCD inflated anyway, thus finding out what the problem was.

On your other point saying that the DM and the dad might have controlled her enough to remove the BCD, how was this done? IÃÎ not asking you directly. I am hoping that Skeeter will step up and provide something more tangible so that we can discuss this case factually. It is hard to say if Skeeter can do this to be honest. Since he says the divers had 22 minutes on the dive and had to be called back, they would not have been on the surface to see this happening. And if Skeeter was among them, well it would seem that all we have is a second-hand account anyway, which would be disappointing to be honest.

Slightly tangential to this point, do you recommend that two divers approach a panicked diver at the same time in this fashion? I only ask because this was discouraged in my class also, given that the situation could escalate adding more than one troubled diver to the mix (say she yanks the reg out of her fatherÃÔ mouth).

If you do have some experience with two divers approaching a distressed diver in a safe way, IÃÅ be very interested in that technique as a general safety measure. Again, if all the other divers were already below, that means it was daddy, the DM, and the boat as the witnesses to this incident, I am guessing. With only two viable divers in the water, I would think it a bad idea to have both approach her at the same time.

Assuming the DM was the only certified person to do the rescue in this case, wouldnÃÕ it have been more prudent not to get him involved? Again, I read this as a case where the dad was not all that experienced either (not having a good buddy system is a big clue), so he might not have been the best help in this case. Still the logistics of two divers controlling a panicked diver seems hard to imagine, other than through brut force. If that is the case, an oral inflation should have (could have) been a very reasonable approach to get her calmed. Then the two of them could have guided her back to the boat together. I realize I am way out there in the land of guesses also.

Please, Skeeter. This incident could be very helpful on more then one front if you added more detail. Please help us out if you can.

Cheers!

Dadvocate: Good questions. I'm guessing that we are talking about a young female diver. So if that is true:

1. Even in full panic, an adult male could easily control her, probably from any aspect. I'd still do it "the safe way" if possible, just saying this is not a "typical" scenario (i.e. a large strong male in a panic). So in this case I imagine the DM and dad were not worried about her overpowering them, if they thought about it at all. An remember, when its a kid in trouble, most of us will jump right into the fire to save them, contrary to any training we've had.

2. Her dad was her buddy. If he saw his daughter in trouble, he'd more than likely be trying to help her, panic or not. So I imagine he'd be right in there with the DM trying to get things under control, talking to her, trying to calm her down. But who knows.

3. Again, we still really do not know enough about what happened. It possible she had a moment of real panic, but then calmed down somewhat and was scared but manageable when the dad and DM began to assist her. I really doubt she was still in a state of panic when they took her BC off.

4. I agree with what you were taught in that I would not try to "double-team" a panicking diver. One diver attempts the "rescue". The other is just back-up, and keeps out of reach of the victim, but is ready to help if needed. I'm just assuming this was a different situation, and again, may not have been the "flailing, splashing, climbing-up-you-to-get-out-of-the-water" panic at all. Again, we don't know.

I think each rescue scenario is unique, and you can modify how you respond based on the situation at hand. But in doubt stick with your training and be safe. I'm guessing the DM and dad did what they thought was best at the time; whether it should have been done differently is hard to say without more information.

Interesting to speculate, but at this point I think thats all we can do.

Safe Diving!

 

[Dadvocate]

Thanks, Lead Turn.

At the very least this got me thinking about what I'd do if I were in that situation. When it comes to these things, any attempt at visualization and analysis has to be good, especially for an untested rescue diver like me.

Thanks for the feedback. I think I'll add removing and inserting the pressure hose from my fiancé’s BCD to my pre-liveaboard routine this December. Based on the threads I've been reading this week, we might end up renting a couple of tanks during our one day in Phuket before our trip heads out to sea and hit the pool for an hour or so practicing quite few skills. I haven’t been diving since mid July, and she hasn’t been in the water since March.

I’m feeling inclined to heed the advice these threads have given me.

I totally agree with the into the fire for a child by the way. Very hard to let your training take the lead, even if it is probably more apt with younger victims.

Cheers

 

[DA Aquamaster]

There are only three times when it makes sense to drop ditchable weight (which is the same as saying there are only two times when it makes sense to have ditchable weight):

1. When you need buoyancy on the surface right now where inflating may be too slow or not an option.

2. When you need buoyancy right below the surface and again do not have the inflate the BC option.

3. When you have screwed up so much and so often that you are on the bottom with no buoyancy, no gas and no buddy in sight and it is an absolute last resort where getting bent is better than drowning.

In this incident several things had to happen for this to even become a problem.

A. She was a new or inexperienced diver who was either still uncomfortable in the water, leaving her prone to anxiety and panic, or a diver who is panic prone and probably should not be diving at all.

B. Some one at some point assisted her in becoming overweighted - a common issue where an instructor over weights a student rather than focusing on the root cause of not being able to get down (nervous kicking at the surface, failure to properly dump air from the BC, etc). As an aside, no one came along during her short career and assisted her in getting properly weighted. This is something I frequently find myself doing when I encounter and budd with new divers at the local quarry. (If you see a problem with a new diver, be nice and politely help them fix it.)

C. She failed to properly connect the LP inflator (it is possible it may have looked connected but popped off on entry - it happens some times)

D. Her buddy failed to note the disconnected inflator hose (with the reservation noted above).

E. The diver failed to check the BC inflator for proper operation before entry. (Ice diving being one of the few exceptions where you would not do this).

F. The DM and or crew failed to note the disconnected inflator during at least a visual inspection of the diver as they got ready to spalsh. (again with the poosible exception that it was improperly connected).

G. The diver failed to inflate the BC before entry. (In some cases where the current is strongt, you do enter the water with no air in the BC or wing to facilitate getting down to the granny line - but a new diver should not be doing such a dive.) The crew or one of the DM's should have noted this and pointed out or corrected the problem

H. Once in the water the new diver failed to realize all you really have to do right now is keep the reg in your mouth and breathe or if it is missing, recover the reg and breathe. Rolling/rotating face down will put it below you where a normal sweep will recover it - unless you are sinking really fast, then rolling to the left will but the reg in front of you where you can recover it with. Even if you can't find the primary, you can still switch to the octo whihc should still be clipped to you or better yet on a bungee around your neck.

I. The diver failed to assess the problem and reconnect the inflator.

J. Failing that, the diver failed to dump weight when she realized she was negatively buoyant and sinking.

BREATHE, THINK, ACT

Preventing any of A through J would have potentially broken the chain of events leading to the incident and prevented the incident and all of them had to happen for the incident to occur.

The sad part here is that we as an industry have dumbed down the OW cert and created a "pay for the training and you get the card" attitude regardless of how marginal the person's skill levels may be. It is possible for a diver to minimally cmoplete all the required skills and in total not be competent and or to just not be psychologically suited to dive. The ethical response from an instructor is to not pass them absent more training and or a higher level of comfort in the water.

As for tipping the DM - maybe. He resolved the incident, but prevention would have been far better and he or she played a role in at least some of the missed steps above. New divers are usually pretty obvious when assembling their gear, on the trip out and when gearing up - they warrant additional attention.

 

[Lucca]

It is mentioned several times in this thread that they (DM or father) should have reconnected the inflator hose. It's not possible to do that without closing the tank's valve and purging the pressure in the system before. It seems that rather long procedure was not an option in this case...

 

[dave4868]

It is mentioned several times in this thread that they (DM or father) should have reconnected the inflator hose. It's not possible to do that without closing the tank's valve and purging the pressure in the system before. It seems that rather long procedure was not an option in this case...

I find it's only a little harder to connect the inflator hose when pressurized.

Dave C

 

[Web Monkey]

I donÃÕ have any problem with that decision at all. The part you are quoting deals with how to get control of the panicked diver so that she can be brought back to the boat safely.

Come up from behind and underneath, inflate your BC and grab her tank valve, hang on tight, keep her head out of the water and tow her back to the boat.

There's no reason to get in front to reconnect anything, since the dive is over.

Even if she's 20 pounds overweighted, it shouldn't be an issue if you have a BC with a reasonable amount of lift.

Terry