A question to an incident

[ShakaZulu]

Where was the dive site...let's go find the gear and Ebay it

PS. Best to do that little BWARF check on every dive....jumping in the water with no air in your BC can become interesting in a hurry. Especially if you don't know how to dump your weights

B stands for BCD/buoyancy: check that everything is connected (buckles, air inflator
hose, etc.). Make sure the dump valves are working, the BC holds air (no leaks/tears) and the tank is securely fastened.

W stands for weights: make sure the weight belts are on or are secure in their pockets
if you have an air integrated BC. Also check that weight belts are set for right hand releases.

A stands for Air: double check your air (and your buddys) is on. Check how much pressure is in the tank. Check the air to both the primary regulator and octopus.

R stands for Releases: check the releases (BCD, tank strap, attached equipment, etc.) - where they are, how they come undone and are they properly buckled before the dive. You need to be aware of how it works for your buddy in case of an emergency.

F stands for Final OK: Do a final head to toe check. Are the mask and fins on, does anything not look right on your buddy?

 

[DESIGNERDIVER]

just a question......do we know how old this girl was? says she dove with her father. I can understand people being upset because they called the dive but if she was young like 12/14/16 i do have compassion for her and the situation. Being a total newbie(3 more weeks til i get certifie) I can see how she could totally panic. However I do think the captain should offer some compensation to the other divers in either a refund or voucher. I have to say that when I read all about these "near misses" and "incidents" I feel confident that I can draw on them when I am the newbie on the boat and things dont go perfectly( wich I see they never do) and keep myself from overreacting and panicing and remembering the skills I was taught...............

 

[Dadvocate]

I’m not trying to second-guess the DM here, since I was not there and can’t possibly know all the facts in this case. I am merely trying to think through this situation to see how the DM got the kit off of the panicked diver in the first place.

I assume the process would have required the DM getting control of her (ostensibly using an alternate arm pull or perhaps ascending from behind). We learned techniques for this in our rescue diver course. From there he could have grabbed the back of her BCD as we were taught, and then the DM could have inflated his or her own BCD to get this girl above the water line (the perceived place of safety mentioned earlier).

If what we learned in class is true (I admit I am still green in rescue diver terms), then he or she would have been able to calm the girl down long enough to maybe reattach her hose from behind. Or maybe the DM could have manually inflated the girl’s BCD from that position. Or the DM could have dumped her weights from this vantage point as well. That probably happened anyway before the BCD went down.

I was nervous trying this technique in class at first, but I became more confident as we practiced it several times. My instructor is a big guy, and he played “panicked” really well. It was still possible to get control him using this technique when the hold was made correctly. From there lots of things can be done to reduce stress and manage the situation.

His words were poignant in class:
“Sometimes the best thing you can do is give the panicked diver time to tire themselves out. As long as they know they can breathe, this usually takes less time.”

I only bring this up because it would have been equally difficult in terms of control to get her calmed down enough to safely remove her gear and dump the BCD, maybe even more difficult based on the description in the OP.

There are loads of people here with much more Rescue Diver and DM experience than I have. Am I missing something in BCD removal techniques that makes this option better than what I describe above? If, so I’d like learn.

Cheers!

 

[Ayisha]

Dadvocate, remember that she had also lost her reg and would not accept a reg, so she had no air, was panicked, and may have swallowed some water already. Reconnecting her BC inflator hose probably would have worked BEFORE she panicked and had no air source, but at the point of the rescue, it seemed to be past that simple procedure. I think that's what you're suggesting - that the BC inflator hose could simply have been connected rather than surfacing.

 

[divezonescuba]

I need to ask.

What responsibility does a DM have to ensure that anyone is properly prepared to enter the water regardless of whether or not the diver is certified?

I would think that on a recreational dive of this type, a DM or other crew member would be responsible for controlling the entry of divers in the water and making sure of obvious things like their air was on and their BCs were inflated.

I have been on dives were the DM actually required us to go through a specific test routine to prove that our regulators functioned properly prior to entry.

The fact that a good rescue was made does not minimize the fact that it might not have been necessary in the first place.

 

[LeadTurn_SD]

IÃÎ not trying to second-guess the DM here, since I was not there and canÃÕ possibly know all the facts in this case. I am merely trying to think through this situation to see how the DM got the kit off of the panicked diver in the first place.

I assume the process would have required the DM getting control of her (ostensibly using an alternate arm pull or perhaps ascending from behind). We learned techniques for this in our rescue diver course. From there he could have grabbed the back of her BCD as we were taught, and then the DM could have inflated his or her own BCD to get this girl above the water line (the perceived place of safety mentioned earlier).

If what we learned in class is true (I admit I am still green in rescue diver terms), then he or she would have been able to calm the girl down long enough to maybe reattach her hose from behind. Or maybe the DM could have manually inflated the girlÃÔ BCD from that position. Or the DM could have dumped her weights from this vantage point as well. That probably happened anyway before the BCD went down.

I was nervous trying this technique in class at first, but I became more confident as we practiced it several times. My instructor is a big guy, and he played ÅÑanicked really well. It was still possible to get control him using this technique when the hold was made correctly. From there lots of things can be done to reduce stress and manage the situation.

His words were poignant in class:
Å´ometimes the best thing you can do is give the panicked diver time to tire themselves out. As long as they know they can breathe, this usually takes less time.

I only bring this up because it would have been equally difficult in terms of control to get her calmed down enough to safely remove her gear and dump the BCD, maybe even more difficult based on the description in the OP.

There are loads of people here with much more Rescue Diver and DM experience than I have. Am I missing something in BCD removal techniques that makes this option better than what I describe above? If, so IÃÅ like learn.

Cheers!

Hi Dadvocate:

The OP for this topic has not returned with any additional info after their 1st post, so a lot of what we are doing is just guessing now. As a refresher, here is what the OP said happened:

"While on a dive boat this weekend a diver drooped off the boat with out having the inflater line hocked up. the dive was panicked and lost her reg. The DM and her dad tried to get the reg in her mouth but she was not having any part of that. So they dumped the BCD and that was that."

I read that as a (probably) new + young diver who was surprised when she could not establish positive buoyancy after jumping into the water (due to a disconnected inflator hose), she was most likely overweighted as many new divers are, and began to panic. Once panic sets in, the urge to breath overcomes a calmer response like inflating the BC orally and keeping the reg in her mouth.

I'm taking a big leap now, but I'd guess from the OP's description the DM (& dad) could physically keep her on the surface, but could not calm her down enough, so the DM decided it was quickest just to remove her BC (I know the OP said "dumped", but I doubt that it was allowed to sink... but the OP didn't really say). I'm guessing the BC was a weight integrated jacket BC, otherwise I'd assume the DM would just reach down and take off her weightbelt. I'm not sure why the DM did not try to orally inflate her BC for her; maybe they did not yet know that it was simply the inflator that was disconnected? Maybe he felt it was just faster and easier to unhook the quick releases and get her out of the BC and back onto the boat... or maybe they DID get it orally inflated, but knew she could not / should not dive, so stripped her out of it?

Unless the OP provides more detail, I'm simply guessing. I do agree with what several others have said about obvious gaps in the victim's training... but I'm willing to bet an incident similar to this happens on dive boats every day :headscratch:

I am really glad this was just an "incident" rather than a fatality report.

Safe Diving!

 

[String]

Along with divers being able to orally inflate their BC's, Isn't another option to simply dump the weight system to become positively buoyant? I realize that when a diver panics, they can not & do not think rationally. That's where training & repetition comes into play.

Unfortunately repetition for things like that are rare - a lot of people do them the required number of times in their course but NEVER do it once qualifying. Its things like BC inflator hose, weight release, AAS ascents and so on that generally never get practiced and get forgotten after qualifying. In some divers cases it could be several years since they last did one of those so when things do go wrong they dont have the muscle memory to actually solve it.

An instructor can only certify someone as competent for that exact moment in time - there's nothing they can do about people 6 months, 1 year, 5 years down the line.


As for the incident itself, if there was no medical suspicion or problem then monitor only seems fine to me. I really cant imagine any charter boat turning back because someone coughs and splutters a bit in the water. The diving should have continued. No need for coastguard to be informed in the above case.

If they suspected something more seriously then yes the day is over BUT coastguard should have been informed immediately so emergency services are waiting at the dock.

 

[Dadvocate]

Hi, Ayisha!

It is hard to tell exactly what the specifics are from the OP, but I am assuming the panicking episode took place on the surface with her using a good deal of energy in kicking to keep her head above water. She must also have been using her arms in refusing the reg among other things. This makes her dangerous as well as distressed while taking in salt water.

The girl was brought safely back to the boat alive. As many say, there is no one correct way to do a rescue. Hopefully only embarrassment remained as a residual in this incident.

What I want to understand is how the DM got to her safely to remove her BCD. Maybe he was simply physically stronger than her and was able to approach her from the front. This was strongly discouraged by our instructor, however. He cited cases where panicked divers much smaller than their rescuers were able to make matters worse because of the irrationality of their panicked state. This was why we practiced approaching to a safe distance before committing to a rescue. We were also taught that if a panicked diver gets to you and starts grabbing at you, your reg, or your mask, then submerge ASAP to get away from them. That was also usually the point at which we tried to approach from behind and underneath. Take no unnecessary risks, right?

Maybe he or she enlisted the father’s help in doing this. The OP seems to suggest that the DM and the father did the removal together, though the details are scarce to say the least. I would be very interested in the why and how here, though I am sure some will point out that this discussion is only conjecture anyway. Nonetheless, given that I might not want a worried father involved in subduing a panicked diver in this case, I wonder in what capacity the DM used his services and made him an ally and not a further hindrance to the rescue. Keep in mind, this is the same dad-buddy who didn’t do a proper buddy check with his daughter in the first place.

If I understand the situation correctly, she was in contact with the DM and her father. Both tried to encourage her to put the reg back in her mouth. Does that mean they verbally encouraged her or did one of them physically try to put the reg in her mouth?

Can you provide more information, Skeeter?

In each scenario in my class with a panicked diver the reg had been removed and the diver acted distressed, splashed about, tried to grab us, etc. So from that standpoint at least, the situation seems to be similar in my mind. To make the decision to remove the BCD also entails approaching the diver and getting close enough to remove weights, unclasp buckles, and ultimately to get the whole kit off.

I am wondering how this was done if not from behind where it is safest, in my head at least. By approaching from underneath and behind or by using leverage to get her turned around and under control, One can inflate one’s own BCD and get her face out of the water without taking undue risk. This action might be the catalyst to her calming down and being more open to communication. That is unless I am missing something practical in this, entirely possible given that I have done no actual rescues to date. If so, I am eager to view other potential approaches given the information we have.

Once that control is gained, I wonder if inflating her BCD and getting her buoyant that way might be easier than getting the BCD fully removed, deflated as it apparently was. If I am making some undue assumptions in this case, by all means call me out on this. The more I envision options now and can mull them over, the better my available options will be if and when I am in the same situation later.

Cheers!

 

[imasinker]

Should a dive master be first or last in the water? If he checks everyones gear on the way in he is last. If something happens to the divers below before he is in the water is he held accountable? If he is the first in the water and someone like this girl has equipment problems at the surface while he is below, is he held accountable? If you ask me beinga DM is a tough job, especially if you don't know any of the divers or their history. This DM sounds like he did a good job at getting her out of the water. As for the Charter, i be asking for compensation for money lost.

 

[String]

Should a dive master be first or last in the water?

First in, last out

If he checks everyones gear on the way in he is last.

Not really his job - if its qualified divers they should be able to kit up and buddy check each other. Unless they've paid for a nanny-dive in which case he checks them and gets in immediately before them.

If something happens to the divers below before he is in the water is he held accountable?

No. They're qualified divers so shouldnt be relying on him.