A FB friend posted his brother died today in Ginnie Springs

[lv2dive]

What I find odd is that Carlos allegedly carried from Canada an Alu80 bottle of Air (marked as O2...), when he also carried back-mount bottles of N30.

Air is cheap and it would have been easy enough for him if he wanted more gas to empty the Alu80 and fill it with the same gas he had in his back-mount (i.e. N30 which was quite suitable for the diving he intended to do).

Instead, he had an O2 bottle actually filled with O2 which we know he breathed at depth.

I am genuinely curious... Why are you so convinced it was something more than (different from) what 95% of the people who know anything about the accident, believe it to be? (Specifically, a tragedy that could have been avoided if existing guidelines of gas analysis and marking, were followed).

Finally... why is getting to the bottom of this (non-existent) conspiracy so important? I sincerely do not understand from where you are coming.


*i don't know of any major training agency that does not treat oxygen as narcotic but admittedly have not been exposed to every major agency so I will leave it at "nearly"

 

[gianaameri]

Not to stray away from topic, was Carlos the type of cave diver who would plan a 100' cave dive on Air?



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[Dr. Lecter]

was Carlos the type of cave diver who would plan a 100' cave dive on Air?

Well, let's see... people who were there, at the time, reported that he said not to worry about the O2 MOD 20 markings because the tank was full of air. He then took that tank into the cave and breathed it at depths around 100'. I'd say your question has been answered. Not that EAN30 is any less narcotic than air at 100', or any other depth.

 

[gianaameri]

Well, let's see... people who were there, at the time, reported that he said not to worry about the O2 MOD 20 markings because the tank was full of air. He then took that tank into the cave and breathed it at depths around 100'. I'd say your question has been answered. Not that EAN30 is any less narcotic than air at 100', or any other depth.

It is relevant to know if Carlos followed a safer and more prudent gas choice approach to 100'/30 meter cave diving (i.e. using Nitrox or He), or he had a more basic approach and found no issue using Air at 100'.

How was he taught, for example... to use Air at 100' in a cave?

 

[gianaameri]

I was a "baby" when I started diving (relative to my age now).

Hyperbaric doctors at the time believed that your lungs would implode if you dove to SCUBA depths breath-holding (and SCUBA for this was touted as a big advantage vs. freediving!!!).

The SPG had just been introduced, and I could not buy tanks without the 50 bar reserve valve.

The big debate at the time was if BCDs were "safe."

There were no dive computers and depth gauges were analogue.

Then there was a big debate if Dive computers were safe... followed by the if Nitrox was safe... and the 10 meter ascent rate better or not than the USN 18 meter ascent rate (in no particular order).

Nitrox was indeed taught as reducing Narcosis... and as much is still in print on the "Bible" (page 145 of the NSS Cave Dive Manual):

"For dives deeper than 25 fsw, however, if some of the nitrogen is replaced with oxygen, the no decompression limit is extended and the amount of decompression that must be conducted for any given dive profile is reduced. In addition, the amount of nitrogen narcosis is diminished."

How about discussing Carlos' incident now?

 

[kotik]

I can try to take a shot at answering your question.

was Carlos the type of cave diver who would plan a 100' cave dive on Air?

If by this you mean: "Was Carlos the type of diver who held no opinion that EAN21 is any more narcotic than EAN30, and that the only penalty he would pay is longer deco if he uses some from an existing fill"... well, I never met Carlos so I can only guess. I'd put the odds at about 99% that the answer is yes.

If you mean "Was Carlos the type of diver for which 100' END in this cave is within acceptable personal limits and not a dive requiring trimix", I'd put the odds lower, maybe at 95%.

 

[ScubaSteve]

.......I never met Carlos so I can only guess..........

So why bother? Do not make claims about him that you do not know as fact. Apply the unknown to a scenario in general terms, not to Carlos' name. FTR I do not know Carlos (although we did have several common friends) so I am stating this as an impartial party, not as an emotional friend or family member.

 

[kotik]

So why bother? Do not make claims about him that you do not know as fact. Apply the unknown to a scenario in general terms, not to Carlos' name. FTR I do not know Carlos (although we did have several common friends) so I am stating this as an impartial party, not as an emotional friend or family member.

Why not bother? It's the A&I forum, the vast majority of what's said here is speculation. Giana is certainly itching to speculate. The answer to his question of whether Carlos was this "type" (his label, not mine) of diver to me is a safe enough bet to just tell him "of course", so he can get on with whatever the punch line is. Personally I'd be relieved if there were a punch line so that maybe the Giana incident could wrap up.

In general terms, of the many technical and cave divers I've met, narcosis is not any consideration at all in choosing nitrox vs. air. I also know some of the crowd that Carlos associated with, and we are close enough of age and training background, that I'm willing to bet that if he were some "type" of diver in this respect, then I'm probably the same type. Along with basically everyone I know.

 

[ScubaSteve]

Giana will never wrap up. He is a self propelled poster that has achieved momentum and will work to crash through anything in his way. He likes to pretend he wants this thread back on track but he is fooling nobody.

And the A&I forum is not a place where we can make things up and apply them to the victims or anybody else for that matter. Speculation is one thing. Creating an attitude and attaching it to the deceased is another. That has nothing to do with speculation. Nothing good has come from this discussion in the past 100 posts and nothing more will come from it other than a couple people wandering way off track and continuing to do so. The error really was quite simple and we have all taken a little away from that. Claiming Carlos was "anything" will not add to the discussion......there is nothing to be learned from tarnishing Carlos' reputation/memory.

 

[kotik]

Giana will never wrap up. He is a self propelled poster that has achieved momentum and will work to crash through anything in his way. He likes to pretend he wants this thread back on track but he is fooling nobody.

And the A&I forum is not a place where we can make things up and apply them to the victims or anybody else for that matter. Speculation is one thing. Creating an attitude and attaching it to the deceased is another. That has nothing to do with speculation. Nothing good has come from this discussion in the past 100 posts and nothing more will come from it other than a couple people wandering way off track and continuing to do so. The error really was quite simple and we have all taken a little away from that. Claiming Carlos was "anything" will not add to the discussion......there is nothing to be learned from tarnishing Carlos' reputation/memory.

Very well then, point taken-- safe diving to you.