A FB friend posted his brother died today in Ginnie Springs

[gianaameri]

Giana will never wrap up. He is a self propelled poster that has achieved momentum and will work to crash through anything in his way. He likes to pretend he wants this thread back on track but he is fooling nobody.

And the A&I forum is not a place where we can make things up and apply them to the victims or anybody else for that matter. Speculation is one thing. Creating an attitude and attaching it to the deceased is another. That has nothing to do with speculation. Nothing good has come from this discussion in the past 100 posts and nothing more will come from it other than a couple people wandering way off track and continuing to do so. The error really was quite simple and we have all taken a little away from that. Claiming Carlos was "anything" will not add to the discussion......there is nothing to be learned from tarnishing Carlos' reputation/memory.

This is hilarious.

Carlos has been repeatedly denigrated without evidence by malicious anonymous posters in various forums.

I am asking for fact from people with direct knowledge. Those who for example had him as a student:

"Did you teach Carlos to use Air to 100' in a cave?"

 

[ScubaSteve]

This is hilarious.

I suppose that depends on your perspective and how you define "hilarious". I can think of nobody that finds anything to do with this event hilarious.

Carlos has been repeatedly denigrated without evidence by malicious anonymous posters in various forums.

This I agree with. And do you know what has been learned from any of the malicious statements? Zero! Zilch! Zip! Nada! Which is why I do not believe they belong in any thread that is even loosely pertaining to this event. If we cannot learn from it then it has no place in here IMO.

I am asking for fact from people with direct knowledge. Those who for example had him as a student:

"Did you teach Carlos to use Air to 100' in a cave?"

Actually, if you recall, your question was:

Not to stray away from topic, was Carlos the type of cave diver who would plan a 100' cave dive on Air?

You were in fact asking people not what his training was but what his tendencies were. That, to me, was a leading question at best.

As I indicated, I did not personally know Carlos but knew many that did. That is the only reason I followed these threads (on SB, OD, CDF, TDS) as I did. I have said nothing until now and only really spoke up now because I have seen pages and pages of useless banter that really had nothing to do with this event that finally got moved and then I saw what I believed was statements that took things to far. That is all. I truly believe there is nothing more to learn from what we know today. But if the conversation is to continue, I would hope that people can maintain some semblance of control and keep what is posted to either known and validated facts or keep them away from Carlos' name and post them clearly as part of a "what if" scenario that has nothing to do with Carlos.

All of the above really is just one man's opinion......I do not pretend to speak for everybody. Safe dives to all.

 

[gianaameri]

You were in fact asking people not what his training was but what his tendencies were.

Carlos' training and/or tendencies (i.e. actual practices) from those who actually are in a position of direct knowledge was my original intent/question.

The NACD new guidelines pretty much sum up all that can reasonably be learned to date - absent any new information.

 

[phoenix31tt]

The NACD new guidelines pretty much sum up all that can reasonably be learned to date - absent any new information.

From the new guidelines:

The lessons to take away from this:

1. Analyze every cylinder, whether you think it is filled with air, Nitrox, Trimix, or Oxygen,
2. Label every cylinder with gas content and MOD
3. Remove all old, Oxygen, Nitrox, and Custom Mix labels if the cylinder is to be repurposed.
4. Make gas analysis a team project.

And thus diving to 100' on air is irrelevant isn't it?

 

[gianaameri]

And thus diving to 100' on air is irrelevant isn't it?

It would be relevant as a new piece of information because we have no concrete evidence to date to corroborate the story circulating on the net that Carlos travelled from Canada with a bottle of Air (i.e. which was marked O2 and actually contained O2...) for his planned cave dive at Ginnie.

At least if somebody said, "Yes, I trained him to dive Air to 100' in a cave and he regularly did...", then, maybe, it would make the story of the foreigner from Canada going cave diving to Florida with an Alu80 of Air marked O2 and actually containing O2 a bit more realistic/stronger/credible.

 

[ScubaSteve]

It would be relevant as a new piece of information because we have no concrete evidence to date to corroborate the story circulating on the net that Carlos travelled from Canada with a bottle of Air (i.e. which was marked O2 and actually contained O2...) for his planned cave dive at Ginnie.

At least if somebody said, "Yes, I trained him to dive Air to 100' in a cave and he regularly did...", then, maybe, it would make the story of the foreigner from Canada going cave diving to Florida with an Alu80 of Air marked O2 and actually containing O2 a bit more realistic/stronger/credible.

His buddy's confirmed it. What else do you need? They noticed the tank markings, asked him, he explained it, they accepted it and the rest is history. How is that not confirmed? That came from the mouths of his buddies. He made it clear that he was knowingly diving an O2 tank that was filled with air (or so he thought). You seem to be stretching to create excuses for asking the questions you are asking.

 

[Dive Bug Bit Me]

Actually I've just entertained myself for a good while on the show that was put on in CDF. The thread is there. Some time after the first few posts, that thread became pointless other than for cheap entertainment. Lets not try that again.

 

[gianaameri]

His buddy's confirmed it. What else do you need? They noticed the tank markings, asked him, he explained it, they accepted it and the rest is history. How is that not confirmed? That came from the mouths of his buddies. He made it clear that he was knowingly diving an O2 tank that was filled with air (or so he thought). You seem to be stretching to create excuses for asking the questions you are asking.

So, if I die and somebody says my buddies told him that my tank came from a flying pig and a few people repeat it on the internet it automatically makes it true?

I am not saying it did not happen like that, but because all DIR use N32 for a 100' cave dive AND the more experienced cave divers don't use Air for a 100' cave dive AND the bottle contained O2 and was marked O2 AND there is no evidence to date to corroborate the internet story that Carlos came from Canada to Florida with an Alu80 filled with Air but marked O2 and actually containing O2...

In short, I am wondering if anyone who actually knew Carlos and dove with him regularly knows if Carlos would actually plan (and did plan and did do in the past) a dive in that manner (Backmount N30, 1 Alu80 of Air, 1 Alu40 of O2 for a 100' dive) and/or if that is what his instructor taught him to do (i.e. use Air for a 100' dive).

My perception is biased because I would not do a 100' dive in a cave on Air and actually don't know anybody who would.

Most would use N32 (given a choice).

Is not N32 the standard mix supplied for Florida caves (the tourist ones with the "gold line"...) by, for example, Cave Adventures, Dive Outpost, and Cave Country Dive Shop?

I hope the above explain the logic of enquiring in Carlos' actual past training and actual gas choice protocol.

 

[kotik]

So, if I die and somebody says my buddies told him that my tank came from a flying pig and a few people repeat it on the internet it automatically makes it true?

I am not saying it did not happen like that, but because all DIR use N32 for a 100' cave dive AND the more experienced cave divers don't use Air for a 100' cave dive AND the bottle contained O2 and was marked O2 AND there is no evidence to date to corroborate the internet story that Carlos came from Canada to Florida with an Alu80 filled with Air but marked O2 and actually containing O2...

In short, I am wondering if anyone who actually knew Carlos and dove with him regularly knows if Carlos would actually plan (and did plan and did do in the past) a dive in that manner (Backmount N30, 1 Alu80 of Air, 1 Alu40 of O2 for a 100' dive) and/or if that is what his instructor taught him to do (i.e. use Air for a 100' dive).

My perception is biased because I would not do a 100' dive in a cave on Air and actually don't know anybody who would.

Most would use N32.

Is not N32 the standard mix supplied for Florida caves (the tourist ones with the "gold line"...) by, for example, Cave Adventures, Dive Outpost, and Cave Country Dive Shop?

I hope the above explain the logic of enquiring in Carlos' actual past training and actual gas choice protocol.

The standard mix at CCDS is 30%. None of the shops I know bank their O2 percentage based on narcosis issues. You simply saying repetitively that experienced divers dive nitrox to reduce narcosis doesn't make it so.

 

[nimoh]

Giana will never wrap up. He is a self propelled poster that has achieved momentum and will work to crash through anything in his way.

nailed it