A different take on Master Scuba Diver

[Leatherboot69]

I wanted to reply directly to @crofrog to say I wouldn't have phrased it that way, but I decided against bothering to reply. Anyway, while crofrog is correct that "part of the goal of fundies is assessing your readiness for further training," that kind of statement could be interpreted as meaning that is a necessary goal of Fundies when in fact it is an optional goal. There are Fundies students who never intend to dive anywhere but sunny places and look at fish and turtles. My wife and I were two of them, as were the other couple in our Fundies class. (However, having sipped the Kool-Aid I became addicted and in fact ended up doing further traning.)

So, the bottom line is that if you intend to do further training, yes, one of the goals of your Fundies class can be to assess your readiness for further training, as crofrog said. But even if you do not intend to do further training, there are plenty of other reasons to take Fundies. Gaining that extra bit of finesse in the water--say, a good back kick and precision control, so you can get face to face with that nudibranch--is one. Sure, you can learn that on your own over time, and maybe you have already achieved that kind of precision, but GUE instructors are really good at teaching it. An extra margin of safety is another. See my posts above about "stacking the odds in your favor." Still another is what a couple of us have been saying about freeing up bandwidth in your brain so you can focus on the fish and turtles. People talk about GUE's emphasis on standardization and procedures, but at least at the recreational level those things contribute to the autopilot effect and may allow you to enjoy the dive more.

I'm not trying to persuade you to take Fundies. You have taken a different path to becoming a skilled diver, seem pleased with your accomplishments, and that is more than most divers ever do. I'm just responding to what I see as possible misconceptions.

Yes, I get that now. Ironically I’ve now started looking up fundies courses…!

 

[Lorenzoid]

Yes, I get that now. Ironically I’ve now started looking up fundies courses…!

I'll give that a quiet Like, since I said I wasn't trying to persuade you.

 

[Big Dan K]

For my first post ever, I give congrats to leatherboot69. For those of us who took long breaks from diving, age and lack of recent dives is hard to overcome. I tried the fundies with a private DM route first. Now I will be trying your route by taking more classes. Cost of a class is similar to dives with a private DM, both build confidence and freshen skills, but with the class one might at least pick up a new skill or two. It’s not easy to be an old noob.

 

[tursiops]

For my first post ever, I give congrats to leatherboot69. For those of us who took long breaks from diving, age and lack of recent dives is hard to overcome. I tried the fundies with a private DM route first. Now I will be trying your route by taking more classes. Cost of a class is similar to dives with a private DM, both build confidence and freshen skills, but with the class one might at least pick up a new skill or two. It’s not easy to be an old noob.

In general, one is better off diving with a private instructor than with a private DM; the former is trained to provide instruction, the latter is trained to lead dives and help the instructor.

For the money that the upscale classes cost, you can probably hire a private instructor for tailored tutoring designed specifically for you and your needs, so it is more efficient and probably more effective. Think of it as the class without the superstructure, and 1-on-1 with the instructor. You might even get a cert out of it.

 

[Jake 10]

We all want to become better divers and there is no one yellow big road to get there. Some learn by reading books, some by presentations, some by private classes, others by hands-on experience, and few by “all of the above”. At the end we all need to dive to put those skills to a test. The more you practice the better.
Regardless the road you choose, by all means continue to sharpen your skills. If on the road there you get a certification, or a pad in the back that’s ok too. Congratulations to the highly skilled divers, the MSD divers (not the show off) and everyone else who decides to get better at diving. Go and blow bubbles !

 

[Big Dan K]

In general, one is better off diving with a private instructor than with a private DM; the former is trained to provide instruction, the latter is trained to lead dives and help the instructor.

For the money that the upscale classes cost, you can probably hire a private instructor for tailored tutoring designed specifically for you and your needs, so it is more efficient and probably more effective. Think of it as the class without the superstructure, and 1-on-1 with the instructor. You might even get a cert out of it.

Good point. Some of the private DMs I have gone diving with were instructors, others just DMs, and one was just certified to guide. The AOWIs have generally been better at helping me with my skills

 

[Zef]

...SNIP....pro dive theory...SNIP...pro level dive theory knowledge...SNIP...when what I actually need to know is to follow my computer, know how to use tables, gauges and watch and don’t come up too quickly, with a bit of science.

There is no such thing as "pro level dive theory", there is just dive theory, which is the science behind the forces and factors that affect the human body when we dive.

I guess just following your computer is a strategy, but it does not give you the tools/knowledge to effectively plan your dives and understand the "why" behind your plan. If that is ok for you then so be it. Dive and let dive.

-Z

 

[Leatherboot69]

There is no such thing as "pro level dive theory", there is just dive theory, which is the science behind the forces and factors that affect the human body when we dive.

I guess just following your computer is a strategy, but it does not give you the tools/knowledge to effectively plan your dives and understand the "why" behind your plan. If that is ok for you then so be it. Dive and let dive.

-Z

I beg to differ - I was just using PADI’s own distinction. The theory taught at amateur level (courses up to RD) is in much less detail than courses taught at pro level. Hence they have a ‘pro level’ theory course. Otherwise why do DMs and above have to do so much more theory than OW?

This makes sense to me. I know how to use a computer. I know how to use tables for contingency. I understand the basic science behind them. I don’t need (or particularly want) to know the detail of, say, tissue compartment pressures, the difference between DSAT and Buhlmann or of oxidative metabolism to be able to plan and conduct recreational dives safely as an amateur.

The evidence speaks for itself - millions of amateur rec dives are made each year and people don’t die in large numbers because of a lack of detailed understanding of dive theory. Even instructors say they don’t really use a lot of the theory.

 

[Lorenzoid]

I know how to use a computer. I know how to use tables for contingency. I understand the basic science behind them. I don’t need (or particularly want) to know the detail of, say, tissue compartment pressures, the difference between DSAT and Buhlmann or of oxidative metabolism to be able to plan and conduct recreational dives safely as an amateur.

It's a small jump from where you are now to grasping those further details. Pick up a copy of Deco for Divers, which is written for you and me, read it at your leisure, and you're there, without all the "pro" designation nonsense that PADI bestows on it. PADI isn't teaching it at a PhD level--likely not even the level at which Deco for Divers describes it--and it has nothing to do with being a professional. I think you've got more of an inquisitive nature than you give yourself credit for. No rush--you'll probably get to it eventually if you keep discussing this stuff here. But I agree it's not needed for safely conducting the same dive profiles that millions before you have.

 

[Zef]

I beg to differ - I was just using PADI’s own distinction. The theory taught at amateur level (courses up to RD) is in much less detail than courses taught at pro level. Hence they have a ‘pro level’ theory course. Otherwise why do DMs and above have to do so much more theory than OW?

This makes sense to me. I know how to use a computer. I know how to use tables for contingency. I understand the basic science behind them. I don’t need (or particularly want) to know the detail of, say, tissue compartment pressures, the difference between DSAT and Buhlmann or of oxidative metabolism to be able to plan and conduct recreational dives safely as an amateur.

The evidence speaks for itself - millions of amateur rec dives are made each year and people don’t die in large numbers because of a lack of detailed understanding of dive theory. Even instructors say they don’t really use a lot of the theory.

You undermined your point in your response in a previous post you made on this thread where you wrote about the fact that you didn't like that NAUI includes dive theory in their MSD certification course...

...NAUI MSD is a recreational level course. Are you stipulating that the level of dive theory taught/discussed in the NAUI course is "Pro Level" because you have inferred that from the way PADI packages it?

There are lots of divers on the planet and I would argue that the vast majority of them are not, how I would define, good divers.

Your approach to diving, training, knowledge, etc, is, well, your approach....if it works for you then all good, I guess.

-Z