18 yr old Instructor

[adurso]

In the old days we taught ourselves to dive.

If teenagers could teach themselves to dive back then they are certainly capable of teaching others today.

A basic scuba certification class is not a four year med school curriculum. Especially today.

 

[Divenomad]

Hmmm, I believe you are confusing the idea of ability to teach, versus, risk assessment. There is very good science as to how brain development affects risk assessment.

Risk assessment is very different from being able to teach. While the two are connected, they are different arguements. As Thass rightly pointed out, I was, at 19, willing to take risks that most folks would never consider. You will note that I and others have pointed out how military training can offset "immaturity", and we are quite frankly arguing your point for you. The mindset that led me to take those risks are definately not one would want in an instructor. I know it sounds as if I'm contradicting myself, but this a very complicated topic. The key thing is that in my case, it was part and parcel to my job to eliminate every risk possible, and minimize the rest as far as possible within the constraints of the job.If I failed in this, someone dying was not a risk, it was a certainty.

Whether or not a teenager can internalize this mindset is a question that must be put to an individual under consideration. Many can, most cannot.And that goes for any age group.

I think it's important that the difference between being able to teach and adequate risk assessment.

This is in no way reflects any opinion on any individual involved in this discussion.

Nomad

The logical extension of our brains not being developed enough to teach is not only frightening but unwarranted. If you can produce this research so that I can credibly refute it, I will give the argument more credence. I am trying to find my research as we speak and it is in a large file, if you are interested in reading it, please pm me. It was done a little while ago for a research paper and specifically questions the claim of our young brains being incompetent. I know that Thalassamania is not arguing for or against the claim, just putting it out in the light (not a direct response to you). Although I am curious as to what attributes you look for in a great instructor and how an 18 y/o may not fit the mark as well as how an older instructor would. The standard by which we judge instructors may help shed more light on the issue at hand. I know 16 y/o that can perform multi-variate calc without a calculator (ok just 1) and 30 y/o that need one for performing simple addition. I also know 18 y/o that saved lives in extreme condition and 30 y/o that weep at the very sight of blood. It is difficult to judge a person...especially by their age.

 

[zaberman1]

Risk assessment is an interesting issue (I am still trying to dig around for those files...sorry its taking so long).

1. I think the desire and/or drive to mitigate risks comes from knowledge of those risks and perceived implications. I view the situation (in the context of the above post) as a modified prisoner's dilemma. A scuba instructor has an incentive (or probability) to defect (teach poorly, slack on standards, etc) unless there is a compelling reason not to. This compelling reason is formed by repeated interactions and the perceived importance of those interactions. An instructor is taught that failure to apply proper standards and the inability to stay up to date with current regulations is not only grounds for dismissal from the agency but legal action. This is especially important if instruction is their primary source of income. An 18 y/o just out of hs can understand this risk, instructor programs drill this into your head. Even when you go to the IE there is a huge orientation/ending dedicated to this very topic. Scuba instructors also have an incentive to teach well so they can continue to get business. By this logic (although a slow process), instructors that teach poorly are weeded out and left without students. This is checked by their ability to produce references.

2. The knowledge of risks is important and I don't think an 18 y/o is uniquely disadvantaged. I know plenty of old timers (25+) that cave dive without the training, have their computers beeping like mad after the dive, diving alone, etc. Their response when confronted was, 'never was a problem before,' or 'i'm gonna die sometime.' Many of the youngsters I encounter were raised on strict standards and rules nonexistent in the earlier years of diving. I don't want to be misunderstood here as I know that earlier dive training was intense and really just 1 cert, there wasn't 'another cert'...if my point needs clarification, let me know. Moreover, I don't think that the risk associated with diving is hard to understand...18 y/o are not necessarily babies.

3. The response/actual risk management I do not perceive a problem if the diver is experienced. Taking your time with the certifications, gaining experience in different types of diving, and dm'ing for awhile is definately a good idea before becoming an instructor. If the 18 y/o did all this, they should be well prepared for emergencies should they occur. Given, they won't be prepared for every emergency until it actually happens, but that is not unique to an 18 y/o. An interesting question to ask the instructor is how much time did they spend dm'ing/in training.

4. An instructor consistently participating in continuing education courses is an instructor that is excercising adequate risk managment. Many young instructors take in a lot of information and take advantage of their youth...plenty of older instructors may feel as though they don't have time or choose not to pursue further education.

As far as teaching is concerned:

1. The ability to teach is not unique to any age. I think the instructor's background/resume is important. For instance, if they were president of the debate team in hs, a coach, a writer, etc. their articulation and explanation could probably be better than a full time scuba instructor.

2. Instructor theory and knowledge at good IDC's really does drill in how to adequately perform skills and convey important information. Its a good idea to know where your instructor was certified.

3. I don't, as of yet, see any information that suggests inferior brain development results in an inability to teach better than a 30 y/o. My health policy prof is brilliant but he can't teach to save someones life (no pun intended), yet the 18 y/o sitting in front of the class brilliantly conveys some of the esoteric info to the class. A lot of our schooling (atleast mine) was very intense insofar as presentations and discussions are concerned, articulation is a skill required at many institutions (including hs).

4. I appreciate Nomad's response; he is very right to suggest that it depends on the individual at hand. If they can teach, they can teach. By can, I mean ability. I have seen or read nothing to suggest that 18 y/o's can't teach. Whether or not the instruction is good is dependent on many factors (listed above and in previous posts) and checked by 1. the dive center, 2. the organization, 3. references, 4. standards and procedures, 5. continuing education, etc.

 

[Puffer Fish]

Risk assessment is an interesting issue (I am still trying to dig around for those files...sorry its taking so long).

1. I think the desire and/or drive to mitigate risks comes from knowledge of those risks and perceived implications. I view the situation (in the context of the above post) as a modified prisoner's dilemma. A scuba instructor has an incentive (or probability) to defect (teach poorly, slack on standards, etc) unless there is a compelling reason not to. This compelling reason is formed by repeated interactions and the perceived importance of those interactions. An instructor is taught that failure to apply proper standards and the inability to stay up to date with current regulations is not only grounds for dismissal from the agency but legal action. This is especially important if instruction is their primary source of income. An 18 y/o just out of hs can understand this risk, instructor programs drill this into your head. Even when you go to the IE there is a huge orientation/ending dedicated to this very topic. Scuba instructors also have an incentive to teach well so they can continue to get business. By this logic (although a slow process), instructors that teach poorly are weeded out and left without students. This is checked by their ability to produce references.

2. The knowledge of risks is important and I don't think an 18 y/o is uniquely disadvantaged. I know plenty of old timers (25+) that cave dive without the training, have their computers beeping like mad after the dive, diving alone, etc. Their response when confronted was, 'never was a problem before,' or 'i'm gonna die sometime.' Many of the youngsters I encounter were raised on strict standards and rules nonexistent in the earlier years of diving. I don't want to be misunderstood here as I know that earlier dive training was intense and really just 1 cert, there wasn't 'another cert'...if my point needs clarification, let me know. Moreover, I don't think that the risk associated with diving is hard to understand...18 y/o are not necessarily babies.

3. The response/actual risk management I do not perceive a problem if the diver is experienced. Taking your time with the certifications, gaining experience in different types of diving, and dm'ing for awhile is definately a good idea before becoming an instructor. If the 18 y/o did all this, they should be well prepared for emergencies should they occur. Given, they won't be prepared for every emergency until it actually happens, but that is not unique to an 18 y/o. An interesting question to ask the instructor is how much time did they spend dm'ing/in training.

4. An instructor consistently participating in continuing education courses is an instructor that is excercising adequate risk managment. Many young instructors take in a lot of information and take advantage of their youth...plenty of older instructors may feel as though they don't have time or choose not to pursue further education.

As far as teaching is concerned:

1. The ability to teach is not unique to any age. I think the instructor's background/resume is important. For instance, if they were president of the debate team in hs, a coach, a writer, etc. their articulation and explanation could probably be better than a full time scuba instructor.

2. Instructor theory and knowledge at good IDC's really does drill in how to adequately perform skills and convey important information. Its a good idea to know where your instructor was certified.

3. I don't, as of yet, see any information that suggests inferior brain development results in an inability to teach better than a 30 y/o. My health policy prof is brilliant but he can't teach to save someones life (no pun intended), yet the 18 y/o sitting in front of the class brilliantly conveys some of the esoteric info to the class. A lot of our schooling (atleast mine) was very intense insofar as presentations and discussions are concerned, articulation is a skill required at many institutions (including hs).

4. I appreciate Nomad's response; he is very right to suggest that it depends on the individual at hand. If they can teach, they can teach. By can, I mean ability. I have seen or read nothing to suggest that 18 y/o's can't teach. Whether or not the instruction is good is dependent on many factors (listed above and in previous posts) and checked by 1. the dive center, 2. the organization, 3. references, 4. standards and procedures, 5. continuing education, etc.

Zaberman, I absolutely love the passion you bring to diving... there is a lot to be said for having that...

So, as someone the is old enough to have met Socrates... been in combat....got my instructor cert at an old age of 23, here would be my take:

1. A young instructor... assuming they are competent, whether or not some older person would like to admit it, will most likely relate better to a younger student.

2. An Older instructor... assuming they are competent, also whether or not some younger people would like to admit it, will most likely relate better to an older student.

There are a lot of reasons for this, including risk assesment differences.. physical strengh differences...life experience differences...

But with all things involving humans, there are huge variations in both instructors and students, so I doubt one can make any blanket assumption..

 

[JP11283]

Zaberman1, If I ever decide to go Tech, I will contact you and discuss possibly hiring you as my Instructor.

I've taken his open water class. I don't think I've ever met a more patient individual. He is a perfect example of why you should not base your decision solely on age.

 

[AfterDark]

Until your older you wouldn't understand how young an 18 year old looks to us gezzers. I see ball players, cops, firemen and I say to myself "does his/her mama know that they're doing whatever it is they are doing? I'd have to be completely convinced of his/her ability to perform before I'd be comfortable with them. Even at that I'd still be wondering if I'll have to pull'em from the water!

 

[bamamedic]

Until your older you wouldn't understand how young an 18 year old looks to us gezzers. I see ball players, cops, firemen and I say to myself "does his/her mama know that they're doing whatever it is they are doing? I'd have to be completely convinced of his/her ability to perform before I'd be comfortable with them. Even at that I'd still be wondering if I'll have to pull'em from the water!

I used to get that a lot as a brand new paramedic...the older patients would even ask me "are you sure you're old enough to be doing this?"....that doesn't happen anymore, though *sigh*

I've got a friend who's 18 years old, and she's trying to become an instructor. I think people who solely judge others based on age are missing out on some great experiences. There are some people who are 18 who are more mature and have better judgement than those twice their age. Judge people based on their actions, not their age

I

 

[Thalassamania]

What you are missing is brain development fact, with individual variation, you're not all there till you're 25. Centers of the brain critical to executive function do not fully grow till then rendering you quite incapable of accurately making certain types of critical judgments.

 

[ZenDiver.3D]

Jumping in. We have a 19(almost 20), year old instructor at my shop. Tris' grandfather opened the shop. Tris' dad took over the shop. Tris was a fish before he could walk. He was diving formally at 10. He has 1,000's of dives, is SCR, CCR, and he just completed his commercial ticket in Scotland. He was top of the class. He is blessed with and amazing intelligence and maturity. He was helping with the boats and took his admiral's course and license at 15. The kid is amazing.

He has performed real rescues, and did them flawlessly. I would let my children take courses from him over the three other *ahem*, mature instructors we have. My own daughter, aged 12, has 198 dives and many have been under Tris' supervision. She is on his path, I hope.

Having said all that. This does not mean I would take a course from just any 18 yr old or older instructor. I have watched "matured" instructors who are absolute garbage as an instructor. It depends on the person. Not the age.

 

[zaberman1]

What you are missing is brain development fact, with individual variation, you're not all there till you're 25. Centers of the brain critical to executive function do not fully grow till then rendering you quite incapable of accurately making certain types of critical judgments.

Not to rehash an old topic, but is there any empirical data to back up this claim specifically in regards to instruction/instructional judgments?

I understand this is a generalization and there are individual exceptions (ie the 24 yo PhD, the 18 y/o mayor, etc.) so it would be foolish for me to provide anecdotal refutation, I am just curious...