You are right. As a cave diver of 18 years we hate to see an accident occur from someone not trained,because unlike the early 70s,cave training is abundant. From a selfish stand point,gaining access to these caves is very difficult,and maintaining access is very difficult too. With constant development in Florida many sites have been closed,and at the present time one site is about to be closed come Janaury 1st,and another "tourist cave" is under threat of possible closure. There are a lot of people behind the scenes expending a lot of their time and personal money to keep these sites open. One concern for owners of property is accidents that result in their liability and litigation,and when there is a fatality of an OW diver at a site,it causes nervousness among these people because the media calls it a cave diving accident,not what it is,which is an untrained diver entering a cave. Look at what happened at School sink. Two unqualified divers trespassed and entered an advanced level cave diving site,which resulted in their death. The owner who took all possible steps is being sued,so how does this translate in the mind of an owner who we are asking us to have access. So,if I cut school,would school be closed and everyone else would be unable to attend,speeding down the highway might result in my getting a ticket,but would that highway be closed to others.................
Dangerous psychology- Diving beyond one's training
- Thread starter tstormdiver
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You are right. As a cave diver of 18 years we hate to see an accident occur from someone not trained,because unlike the early 70s,cave training is abundant. From a selfish stand point,gaining access to these caves is very difficult,and maintaining access is very difficult too. With constant development in Florida many sites have been closed,and at the present time one site is about to be closed come Janaury 1st,and another "tourist cave" is under threat of possible closure. There are a lot of people behind the scenes expending a lot of their time and personal money to keep these sites open. One concern for owners of property is accidents that result in their liability and litigation,and when there is a fatality of an OW diver at a site,it causes nervousness among these people because the media calls it a cave diving accident,not what it is,which is an untrained diver entering a cave. Look at what happened at School sink. Two unqualified divers trespassed and entered an advanced level cave diving site,which resulted in their death. The owner who took all possible steps is being sued,so how does this translate in the mind of an owner who we are asking us to have access. So,if I cut school,would school be closed and everyone else would be unable to attend,speeding down the highway might result in my getting a ticket,but would that highway be closed to others.................
SeaHorse81
Contributor
That's nice. I'm quite sure they are free to decline the invitation. And as I've already said, if it's someone's job to do rescues/retrievals, they're always free to find a different job. There are plenty of great reasons to not dive like aing idiot -- one's moral obligation to think of rescue/recovery divers are not among them.
/digression from thread topic
If only the rescue personnel could know ahead of time who feels this way. Then they could save themselves the risk and trouble when someone like you needs help, whether due to your own miscalculations or circumstances beyond your control.
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That's nice. I'm quite sure they are free to decline the invitation. And as I've already said, if it's someone's job to do rescues/retrievals, they're always free to find a different job. There are plenty of great reasons to not dive like a
/digression from thread topic
Yup ... Edd could have declined to drop what he was doing and at great risk and his own expense go into those caves this year and rescue those untrained divers who foolishly entered those caves. And if he had, four more people would be dead.
It's not a job ... it's a volunteer position that people do for the benefit of the entire community.
Would you feel the same way if a volunteer fire department declined the invitation to come to your house and put out a fire?
As a diver, you do ... in fact ... have a moral obligation to not do stupid things that will put others in jeopardy or cost them access to their dive sites. How would you feel if, on an expensive vacation, someone on your dive boat did something completely stupid and in the process caused your entire vacation to be cancelled? Would you defend that person's right to do what they did?
With rights come responsibilities ... you can't have one without the other ...
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
I agree completely. There in lies the distinction of those who can are are willing to help vs those who sit back carp and criticize.
Again, using number of dives to discredit someone's ability to be part of a conversation is childish and has no bearing on the conversation. It just makes you look like an ass, whether you're being a deliberate ass or not.
I asked an honest question looking for an honest answer. All you said is "dude, it can happen", without a real explanation as to how. For what it's worth, I do dive with a long hose (it just makes logical sense to me), despite not being interested in tech diving but that still doesn't explain a damn thing about HOW a yoke is more likely to be broken off than a DIN valve.
PfcAJ
Contributor
The yoke screw impacts the ceiling, dislodging the reg from the tank-oring. Leak ensues. DIN regs are more secure because that don't have that big nubbin sticking out the back that's just BEGGING to hit the roof or catch on line.
Yoke regs have no business in cave diving.
Yoke regs have no business in cave diving.
Thanks. I understand the physics of what might happen, I'm just wondering if it ever actually has happened. I mean what is the real likelihood of that happening to the point where it breaks loose enough to cause a problem? I can imagine it loosening but actually breaking?
I could see in a confined space you wouldn't want to deal with either issue but was there ever actually a real problem with this that caused people to move to DIN or was it just one more of those logical choices that was an easy solution so why not just go ahead and do it, even if it wasn't really necessary? (I'm not arguing it wasn't necessary, I'm just asking.)
PfcAJ
Contributor
It doesn't break or loosed, it just gets dislodged. You could probably recreate this in your garage with a scuba tank, yoke reg, and a rubber mallet (at your own risk. I don't suggest trying). Just bop the yoke knob with some force and it'll probably disloge it. O-ring seals are pretty dependent on both sealing surfaces being parallel to each other, and when you bop the yoke knob, then reg shifts a little and that's when leaks happen.
I've seen it get dislodged on the surface a few times, but never in a cave because I don't cave dive w/ people who use yoke regs
I've seen it get dislodged on the surface a few times, but never in a cave because I don't cave dive w/ people who use yoke regs
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Yoke regs are easily dislodged by impact. The reg seals against the flat surface of the tank valve via a rubber o-ring. Even a slight impact can loosen the seal. Now, consider that the back side of the yoke sticks out in such a way that it's likely to be the first thing to impact an overhead if you should get too close. This is why you should never enter an overhead with a yoke reg ... it's not designed to be used in a place where such an impact is likely to occur.
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
fjpatrum, I don't know if there are any actual instances of this happening. My guess is that if there were, they occurred back in the early days of cave diving, before the requirements for equipment were as codified as they are now -- and those instances probably didn't get written up on SB or published on FB
We HAVE had a yoke connection come loose on an open water dive, though. The student involved had not gotten the yoke settled properly in the ring, and although it apparently sealed well enough that no one heard it leaking pre-dive, it did come completely loose underwater, and occasioned an air-share. If you think about the mechanics of the systems, the only thing holding the yoke reg in place is a little pressure from the screw and the sealing of the o-ring. With a DIN connection, you have an inch or more of threads holding the reg into the sealing position. I've had a DIN reg setup fall off the tailgate of my truck and hit the ground. I ended up with a couple of deep gouges on the housing of the first stage, but nothing dislodged. I would have been quite surprised if a yoke setup would have survived as well.
We HAVE had a yoke connection come loose on an open water dive, though. The student involved had not gotten the yoke settled properly in the ring, and although it apparently sealed well enough that no one heard it leaking pre-dive, it did come completely loose underwater, and occasioned an air-share. If you think about the mechanics of the systems, the only thing holding the yoke reg in place is a little pressure from the screw and the sealing of the o-ring. With a DIN connection, you have an inch or more of threads holding the reg into the sealing position. I've had a DIN reg setup fall off the tailgate of my truck and hit the ground. I ended up with a couple of deep gouges on the housing of the first stage, but nothing dislodged. I would have been quite surprised if a yoke setup would have survived as well.
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