Recreational Pony Bottles, completely unnecessary? Why or why not?

[Celt]

Two things seem interesting:

1) These discussions usually set off to the side solo divers and photographers, as those clearly seem sensible use cases for redundancy.
2) People bemoan the terrible state of buddy skills and training today.

And then they debate strongly whether a pony makes sense for a normal recreational diver.

So..., if #2 is the case, and a pony makes sense for those without an effective buddy....? What was the question again?

Some people prefer to switch to a bailout in the case of a leak or free flow or some such thing. Rather than relying on a buddy. The buddy part I’d agree with. But personally I think in shallow water this is a mistake and people should be able to surface safely. When you’re main gas supply is compromised the dive is over and you need to surface immediately.(you don’t decide to stay under and practice buddy breathing as was described in the link with the gas shut down) It’s not called bailout for nothing.

 

[Gandalf-the-Diver]

For those of you who dive single tank plus pony for redundancy only, do you 1. Still have two second stages on your back air plus additional on pony? Yes, still have an octo as I dive with others a lot, as well as solo. If another diver has an OOA emergency, they can have my octo and my main tank gas, I will switch to my pony and the dive is over, we are going up.

 

[scubaozy]

When evaluating pony vs no pony, it essentially boils down to comparing:
(probability of sudden gas loss) x (probability of successful deployment of pony in emergency) vs
(probability of sudden gas loss) x (probability of your buddy not being close)
Because probability of running out of gas, especially we mostly refer to it here as sudden loss, is so tiny, the impact of the other values is very limited, near irrelevant. So probability of crappy insta buddy 0.5 vs probability of successful deployment say 0.8, multiply that with say 0.00000x, you see that there will not be significant improvement in your risks.
You will be safer with a pony if you have high probability of successful deployment of pony under pressure, and this means more experienced/trained diver you are, the more it is recommended you carry a pony and less so for inexperienced diver.
I consider my probability of sudden gas loss increase in cold, so, I could employ either twinset with manifold or h Valve with 2 independent regulators. Could I use pony? Yes but it is less versatile, I can do much more with a twinset or h valve. This renders pony as a strange animal that does not fit into natural needs or development of an average diver. It might make sense for traveling because it is small to pack, but hey, we normally travel to warm waters..
I have been reading incident reports from different sources for years. If there is a pony capital in the world, that must be yet I do not see any evidence that favor pony usage in rec diving in bsac reports.

 

[Nemrod]

For those of you who dive single tank plus pony for redundancy only, do you 1. Still have two second stages on your back air plus additional on pony?

I do not use a pony bottle in a recreational dive setting, maybe rarely for a specific reason (photo diving) I cannot think of now and in such case I would normally still have my octo or two second stages if Hog rigged on my back tank. However, if single tank solo then I do genrally use an auxillary bottle of approximately 1/3 my tank air supply. I am blessed to own multiple regulator sets and I would not have two second stages on my back cylinder. I have a pony/aux bottle dedicated regulator and as well a solo dedicated regulator. I am a minimalist, if I do not need it, it is not there, there is no reason to have three second stages when single tank solo. But if buddy diving and in rare case had a pony bottle and my buddy had an issue, I would donate him my octo or long hose primary depending upon my rig and I might switch off to the pony leaving my necklaced second stage unused. Or I might not, I might stay on back gas as well leaving the pony bottle unused, depends upon the buddy, the circumstance and remaining back supply air.

James

 

[Lorenzoid]

Yet many of the forum members admit that they go on recreational dives and sometimes go into "light deco" of a few minutes on a single tank. They did not plan for deco but did so knowingly what their air usage is. Often these few minutes of deco are cleared on a multi level dive before the safety stop ( at least on my shearwater )

Yes, I have seen that discussed—there are whole threads on “light deco.” And of course whether ones “goes into deco” varies depending on algorithms and conservatism settings. It’s not the end of the world. Nevertheless, I would prefer to over-plan and then under-utilize than go into unplanned deco. I’m just very conservative by nature. Every time my head submerges I am reminded how nature does not want me here.

 

[grf88]

When evaluating pony vs no pony, it essentially boils down to comparing:
(probability of sudden gas loss) x (probability of successful deployment of pony in emergency) vs
(probability of sudden gas loss) x (probability of your buddy not being close)
Because probability of running out of gas, especially we mostly refer to it here as sudden loss, is so tiny, the impact of the other values is very limited, near irrelevant. So probability of crappy insta buddy 0.5 vs probability of successful deployment say 0.8, multiply that with say 0.00000x, you see that there will not be significant improvement in your risks.
You will be safer with a pony if you have high probability of successful deployment of pony under pressure, and this means more experienced/trained diver you are, the more it is recommended you carry a pony and less so for inexperienced diver.
I consider my probability of sudden gas loss increase in cold, so, I could employ either twinset with manifold or h Valve with 2 independent regulators. Could I use pony? Yes but it is less versatile, I can do much more with a twinset or h valve. This renders pony as a strange animal that does not fit into natural needs or development of an average diver. It might make sense for traveling because it is small to pack, but hey, we normally travel to warm waters..
I have been reading incident reports from different sources for years. If there is a pony capital in the world, that must be yet I do not see any evidence that favor pony usage in rec diving in bsac reports.

Deploying a pony involves reaching down grabbing something and putting it in your mouth, a skill most have acquired before the age of one. Many recreational divers rent their tanks at the dive location and doubles and H-valves are not normally available unless the shop caters to tech divers. Even if you have your own they may not be easy to travel with depending on mode of transportation. If the chances of having sudden gas loss is so rare why do we teach buddy breathing or even dive with buddies at all. Not everybody travels to warm waters to dive, my last four dives trips that were not local were Greenland together with Labrador and Newfoundland, Victoria Island, Newfoundland and then again to Victoria Island. A lot of people also travel to the Great Lakes for the fantastic diving available there.
Please remember the title of this thread is not Should everybody use a pony tank but is Recreational pony bottles, completely unnecessary, why or why not. In some situations my vote is for Piece Of Necessary Emergency Equipment. (PONEE)

 

[Lorenzoid]

Deploying a pony involves reaching down grabbing something and putting it in your mouth, a skill most have acquired before the age of one.

The ease you imply assumes a few things, such as having it baked into muscle memory where to reach and how to get it to your mouth in a smooth motion without entangling or fumbling it, having prepared the tank, etc. The other school of thought says it's more reliable to take a donated reg your buddy was just breathing a second ago. The presumably less-stressed buddy is the one whose responsibility it is to have that donation movement in muscle memory such that the reg gets donated cleanly and ends up in front of the OOG diver's face, preferably with the mouthpiece oriented to avoid a free-flow, etc.

I have taken my doubles on road trips, such as up to Tobermory (once). If I couldn't do that or rent them for more challenging dives, I suppose I wouldn't do the dives. I bet Greenland was nice. Oh well. I suppose a need for relatively travel-friendly tech gear argues in favor of rebreathers.

 

[MichaelMc]

This puts it nicely:

comparing:
(probability of sudden gas loss) x (probability of successful deployment of pony in emergency) vs
(probability of sudden gas loss) x (probability of your buddy not being close)

The probability of successful redundancy deployment would go up with experience, yes. Yet the base level switching to a necklaced reg should be very easy in any case, which is certainly possible with a pony mounted as either tiny side or on the back (or with full sidemount or ID doubles).

Pony as travel tiny sidemount is the clear win for me (or sidemounting full size tanks).

 

[grf88]

The ease you imply assumes a few things, such as having it baked into muscle memory where to reach and how to get it to your mouth in a smooth motion without entangling or fumbling it, having prepared the tank, etc. The other school of thought says it's more reliable to take a donated reg your buddy was just breathing a second ago. The presumably less-stressed buddy is the one whose responsibility it is to have that donation movement in muscle memory such that the reg gets donated cleanly and ends up in front of the OOG diver's face, preferably with the mouthpiece oriented to avoid a free-flow, etc.

I have taken my doubles on road trips, such as up to Tobermory (once). If I couldn't do that or rent them for more challenging dives, I suppose I wouldn't do the dives. I bet Greenland was nice. Oh well. I suppose a need for relatively travel-friendly tech gear argues in favor of rebreathers.

I am not sure why deploying a slung pony would be an issue for anyone who has practiced it a couple of times. You are assuming that you are diving with a well trained buddy which with an insta buddy is a very large assumption . There is not only the problem of the donation but how is the buoyancy to be controlled, there can be a large swing going from even 80 ft. to the surface when substantial thermal protection is being worn. What do you suggest if you are travelling to a remote destination and do not have a trusted buddy with you, play golf?

 

[Gareth J]

There are two stances on Ponies, some say they are needless, others they are sensible.

My personal experience.
I originally learnt to dive in the Red Sea (90's).
I joined a club in the UK a few months later, after a bit of a checkout dive in the pool. I then had the opportunity to do my first open water dive.

We where at an inland quarry (in February). I was up for a 10m dive as a checkout, and to get to grips with the drysuit, I was using.
Three of the more experienced divers where doing a drop to 35m. Partly as a warm up dive for a trip they where going on, partly to checkout recently serviced kit (including regulators).

I was watching as they entered the water. 10 minutes later, two where on the surface, one was underwater, and the rescue boat was on scene.

What happened?

At around 30m, diver A had a free flow.
He went onto diver B's AAS.
As they started to ascend, his regulators started to free flow.
Diver B switched to his Pony,
Diver A switched to Diver C's AAS.
At around 20m, Diver C's regulators free flowed.
Diver A and Diver C continued to ascend on free flowing regulators.
Diver B followed them to 6m, and stopped, opting to do a few minutes at 6m on the Pony.
Diver A and C ended up on the surface, watching diver B below them.

It transpired that the first stages had all iced up.
Diver B was an ex Navy Diver, and a paraplegic, his ascent was fast at the start, then slow from 10m, with a 5 minute precautionary stop.

Diver A and C had completed 'fast ascents'.

They all went and sat in the Pub for the rest of the day!

It taught me a lesson.

• Things go wrong - even when you do everything right.
• Two divers on one first stage can easily overload it, especially in cold water.
• Cold water and well maintained regulators doesn't mean you are safe.
• A pony, when the **** hits the fan gives you time - not a lot, but possibly enough.
• A free swimming ascent from 30m+ is undesirable.

Until we switched to Twin's the majority of the divers carried a pony. The incident was a good demonstration as to why it's use is a good idea.

By the mid 90's most of us where on twins. But that also related to the depths of the dives and the amount of decompression we where doing.

Gareth