OP
JBFG
Contributor
Thanx for all the great insight!
PADI OW and BPW
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Eric Sedletzky
Contributor
Which is actually a bunch of crap because an Air 2 is essentially the same type system of primary donate but for some reason those are OK??
Some instructors are really ignorant. Either that or dive training has become so politicized that common sense has gone out the window.
Eric Sedletzky
Contributor
Just as an example: If a shop carried nothing but bp/w then they would be selling nothing but BP/w because you wouldn’t have a choice. All OW students going through that shop would be trained from the start in bp/w and wouldn’t know any different. They would be doing the exact same dives and having just as much fun as any other diver trained in a jacket.
You’re right, if the owner and or employees are not bp/w people then they will not carry or endorse them. It takes a full commitment to a type of gear in rental fleet, sales, teaching, sales recommendations, etc. . If a shop was 100% committed to bp/w and pushed them, then had a jacket sitting in a corner and never mentioned it which one do you think they would be selling more of?
The bottom line reason why a majority of shops do not sell bp/w as a mainline product is because the profit margin is much less and they will dilute sales of the more profitable jackets, and also mess up their aggregate sales tiers on the rest of that name brand product line.
Not really. If they sold BP/W/s, the profit margin would be similar.
Eric Sedletzky
Contributor
I have to disagree (just a little).
The bp/w became popular from the internet, that’s how I learned about it in 1999. Not dive shops. Most dive shops didn’t hear about them until years later or if they did they had their heads buries so far in the sand (or somewhere else) it wasn’t even funny.
It remained a child of the internet from then all the way until now. Dive shops could have jumped on the train a long time ago, and some did, but the majority did not, and as a result the bp/w remained to be sold by online retailers for less money than dive shops could ever sell them for. Dive shops like their 100% markup and with jackets they can get that.
I don’t think they can get that sort of markup on bp/w. There are also a few jackets that sell for in excess of $1000, one as high as $1400. I don’t know of a single bp/w with that type of price tag.
Carrying a well rounded selection of gear is a much (at least when I was running a shop) better approach. BP/W is not for everyone. In fact, there is no one gear configuration that will make every diver happy. I am a BP/W diver, yet I realize not everyone will favor that type of BCD. That is fine. Ignorance about a type or style or stuck on the idea there can only be one kind or method is actually the issue.
Where are you getting this information? It isn’t accurate at all. The profit margin is about the same. The main reason a BP/W isn’t sold is due to the lack of interest, knowledge, and/or experience with it.
Great points, however, a Halcyon Infinity system or Light Monkey Single Tank System is ~ $900 +
Which is much more then your run of the mill jacket style without factoring in regs.
The key here is, I sell one infinity system that lasts a diver from OW to Tech 2 and I have a diver for life because I sold them a quality unit that lasts while also building a community around the shop that continues to invite them back for workshops, community events, and classes. The last thing they have to worry about is if their gear can handle the dives.
You cannot honestly sit here and claim that a Aqualung jacket would outlast a Halcyon or Light Monkey BP/W. It won’t happen.
Here is the evolution of the first shop I worked for as an instructor:
Phase One: They sold jacket BCDs and back inflate BCDs. All the retail employees showing the gear to the customers used jacket BCDs and did not like back inflates, so they sold almost all jacket BCDs, "because that was what the customers wanted." Profit margins on each were about the same.
Phase Two: The shop started teaching tech, and I became a tech student. At first, even with tech students as employee/customers, they refused to carry tech equipment on the theory it would not sell. So, even though we were employees, we bought our gear online.
Phase Three: They came to their senses and started selling tech equipment, including BP/Ws, but it was not easy. None of their regular vendors (ScubaPro, Aqualung, etc.) carried that gear then. Vendors selling tech equipment (Dive Rite, etc.) demanded high initial purchases and high annual sales for a contract. They eventually settled on a company headed by a former criminal, Salvo. I was responsible for most of that high initial purchase. The markup on BP/W's was about the same as for regular BCDs. The retail employees who showed customers the gear and talked pros and cons were still all jacket BCD users themselves.
Phase Four: Using a company headed by a former criminal turned out to be a bad idea, since former criminals often retain that part of their lifestyle. Salvo was now out of business, so the shop was badly burned. (Me especially--anyone want any primary regulator paperweights?) Fortunately, Aqualung now had Apeks, which carried BP/Ws at a very high price range and very high markup. The retail employees who showed customers the gear and talked pros and cons were still all jacket BCD users themselves.
Phase Five: The shop switched agencies, and the new agency's owner gave them a lesson on marketing, which I attended. He explained that if you sold a high enough number of a specific model of anything, the vendor would lower the dealer price and thus increase the markup. The shop followed his advice to a T--identify a certain piece of equipment as the one to focus on and have every employee, including especially instructors, focus on getting customers and students to buy that specific model. Instructors were to swear to students that every piece of equipment they used was selected because it was the very best, while the truth was that the shop required them to use it. They still carried all kinds of gear, including BP/W's, but customers were to be funneled to specific choices. The BCD choice was the Seaquest Balance. That was when I left the shop.
Phase Six: The shop stopped teaching tech, and stopped carrying BP/W's. The retail employees who show customers the gear and talk pros and cons are all jacket BCD users themselves.
Phase One: They sold jacket BCDs and back inflate BCDs. All the retail employees showing the gear to the customers used jacket BCDs and did not like back inflates, so they sold almost all jacket BCDs, "because that was what the customers wanted." Profit margins on each were about the same.
Phase Two: The shop started teaching tech, and I became a tech student. At first, even with tech students as employee/customers, they refused to carry tech equipment on the theory it would not sell. So, even though we were employees, we bought our gear online.
Phase Three: They came to their senses and started selling tech equipment, including BP/Ws, but it was not easy. None of their regular vendors (ScubaPro, Aqualung, etc.) carried that gear then. Vendors selling tech equipment (Dive Rite, etc.) demanded high initial purchases and high annual sales for a contract. They eventually settled on a company headed by a former criminal, Salvo. I was responsible for most of that high initial purchase. The markup on BP/W's was about the same as for regular BCDs. The retail employees who showed customers the gear and talked pros and cons were still all jacket BCD users themselves.
Phase Four: Using a company headed by a former criminal turned out to be a bad idea, since former criminals often retain that part of their lifestyle. Salvo was now out of business, so the shop was badly burned. (Me especially--anyone want any primary regulator paperweights?) Fortunately, Aqualung now had Apeks, which carried BP/Ws at a very high price range and very high markup. The retail employees who showed customers the gear and talked pros and cons were still all jacket BCD users themselves.
Phase Five: The shop switched agencies, and the new agency's owner gave them a lesson on marketing, which I attended. He explained that if you sold a high enough number of a specific model of anything, the vendor would lower the dealer price and thus increase the markup. The shop followed his advice to a T--identify a certain piece of equipment as the one to focus on and have every employee, including especially instructors, focus on getting customers and students to buy that specific model. Instructors were to swear to students that every piece of equipment they used was selected because it was the very best, while the truth was that the shop required them to use it. They still carried all kinds of gear, including BP/W's, but customers were to be funneled to specific choices. The BCD choice was the Seaquest Balance. That was when I left the shop.
Phase Six: The shop stopped teaching tech, and stopped carrying BP/W's. The retail employees who show customers the gear and talk pros and cons are all jacket BCD users themselves.
Eric Sedletzky
Contributor
Yes I know shops should carry a variety, most won’t do that. I doesn’t make financial sense because aggregate sales tiers will be affected. The more units of a certain brand they sell the better prices they get on all the other stuff on that particular brand. I was trying to illustrate a point.
In theory the profit margin is the same. However because divers who learned about BP/W on the internet bought on the internet, sales remained on the internet from online dealers who have the ability to discount the products. If shops wanted to compete in this day and age they would have to take a hit on profit to be competitive. The problem dive shops have is that BP/W users tend to be more internet and info savvy than someone who knows nothing and walks into a shop just wanting to take OW. Most current BP/W users bought their unit online.
Many online retailers have had to become “authorized dealers” for mainstream gear like the Leisure Pro’s of the world. They have to sell their name brand jackets and back inflates at MSRP or else they lose their distributorship. However, there are BP/W dealers on the net that don’t have to conform to this rule and can sell units for whatever they want.
Shops with an online presence like DRIS have sourced their own BP/W systems at a very competitive price ($399.) there is little to no performance difference between this unit and many other higher priced units, BP/W units are incredibly simple devices. Shops can’t compete with this type of pricing.
DSS was another one who sold directly to the end consumer (gone now but you get the point).
My whole original point is that B&M dive shops missed the bus a long time ago as far as getting in on the ground floor of the BP/W phenomenon.
It’s the only sports equipment industry that I’ve seen that is so political and crazy about different gear. If it was bicycling and someone came up with a new style frame or component the shops would be scrambling to be the first to get it in. Dive shops do everything not to get new stuff in, just nuts!
fisheater
Contributor
EXACTLY! It would be like bike shops refusing to sell mountain bikes, because they upset the sensibilities of the roadie crowd. That never happened. Now, they're all in on the gravel bike revolution.
I think the major difference isn't between local bike shop owners and local dive shop owners. I think that it's the manufacturers. In the bike industry, it's the same manufacturers that make road bikes, mountain bikes and gravel bikes. In the scuba industry, the jacket manufacturers and the BP/W manufacturers are largely completely separate and fundamentally different.
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