why did GUE , DIR take so long to adopt sidemount.
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beester
Contributor
Razorista, I'm going to stop the discussion here, because frankly you are not reading what I'm saying and are making assumptions which are not valid. Maybe it's my lack of communication skills, maybe it's the medium (always hard to discuss on an internet board), maybe it's you just living in your own little fantasy world. I don't know.
What I do know is that for some strange reason you are making assumptions about an organisation, they way they dive, and why they don't adopt (at this time) a diving system without knowing that organisation. And no having a talk once or twice with a GUE diver does not qualify you.
GUE is not an elite organisation. GUE is quite democratic and listens to his divers. You are not OUT OF THE CLUB because you dive sidemount, do a shallow air dive because there is no nitrox available or because they catch you eating a lollypop. They tend to train you in a specifc way and then let you go with those tools to make up your own mind.
As I said I do also challenging dives with non GUE divers, but this means additional planning, work up dives, a lot of discussion on procedures, and generally speaking they are less smooth. You telling me you don't need any discussion on procedures before challenging dives explains to me that you don't make such dives. Because if you would, you would know that in those dives it boils down to details, and if a detail is not going smooth, then other details get a bump and start getting messed up, and you end up at best with an uncomfortable dive (and why would you want that... it's a hobby after all) or at worst with a cluster****.
So good luck with your diving... I hope you have fun, as I'm having
PS: Maybe people are questioning credentials because you are saying silly unsubstantiated things that make people question your experience and credentials... just saying!
PPS: If you like sidemount so much there are other "DIR" organisations who do have it in their curriculum (UTD or german ISE).
What I do know is that for some strange reason you are making assumptions about an organisation, they way they dive, and why they don't adopt (at this time) a diving system without knowing that organisation. And no having a talk once or twice with a GUE diver does not qualify you.
GUE is not an elite organisation. GUE is quite democratic and listens to his divers. You are not OUT OF THE CLUB because you dive sidemount, do a shallow air dive because there is no nitrox available or because they catch you eating a lollypop. They tend to train you in a specifc way and then let you go with those tools to make up your own mind.
As I said I do also challenging dives with non GUE divers, but this means additional planning, work up dives, a lot of discussion on procedures, and generally speaking they are less smooth. You telling me you don't need any discussion on procedures before challenging dives explains to me that you don't make such dives. Because if you would, you would know that in those dives it boils down to details, and if a detail is not going smooth, then other details get a bump and start getting messed up, and you end up at best with an uncomfortable dive (and why would you want that... it's a hobby after all) or at worst with a cluster****.
So good luck with your diving... I hope you have fun, as I'm having
PS: Maybe people are questioning credentials because you are saying silly unsubstantiated things that make people question your experience and credentials... just saying!
PPS: If you like sidemount so much there are other "DIR" organisations who do have it in their curriculum (UTD or german ISE).
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I am not making assumptions @beester!
This thread started with an assumption and I am talking about those assumptions - not all are mine, however.
I do not think this is about the way GUE divers are diving!
It is more about the public impression of GUE as an organization, but not about individual divers at all.
I do not have a strong opinion either way.
Nothing will 'stop' sidemount now short of the planet exploding or the oceans becoming toxic over night.
Their system is so complicated it violates every diving principle - so I do not trust UTD as an organization personally.
But it is also extremely expensive, so its use will always be rare anyway.
This thread started with an assumption and I am talking about those assumptions - not all are mine, however.
I do not think this is about the way GUE divers are diving!
It is more about the public impression of GUE as an organization, but not about individual divers at all.
I do not have a strong opinion either way.
Nothing will 'stop' sidemount now short of the planet exploding or the oceans becoming toxic over night.
Same to you... I hope you have fun, as I'm having
UTD and sidemount is a running gag at best.
Their system is so complicated it violates every diving principle - so I do not trust UTD as an organization personally.
But it is also extremely expensive, so its use will always be rare anyway.
Be careful........
Yes, sorry.
I think the problem is that there are people in the world that hold the opinion that their 'way' is the best or only true method to accomplish specific goals or a task. Rather than continue to pit GUE against DIR, UTD or any other METHODOLOGY or practice. Let's look at reality.
For instance the special forces units of the United States, and for that matter of other countries all find commonality in many of the missions they perform. All dangerous, all requiring detailed planning and rehearsal, and often even use common tactics, weapons, and equipment.
But there the commonality ends. Almost to a unit, their methods of operation vary in sufficient detail that for a member of one force to join another requires a period of training and adaptation. To operate without fully understanding the differences could produce dangerous, if not lethal consequences.
But for anyone to say that the Rangers, Seals, SF, Delta, SAS, or Moussaud to name a few are better than the others, or prejudice in some way to the other forces. There are different mission profiles that each accepts and operates in why does one have to be better than the other? Why can't it be that on a given day, there is a right for that scenario?
For instance the special forces units of the United States, and for that matter of other countries all find commonality in many of the missions they perform. All dangerous, all requiring detailed planning and rehearsal, and often even use common tactics, weapons, and equipment.
But there the commonality ends. Almost to a unit, their methods of operation vary in sufficient detail that for a member of one force to join another requires a period of training and adaptation. To operate without fully understanding the differences could produce dangerous, if not lethal consequences.
But for anyone to say that the Rangers, Seals, SF, Delta, SAS, or Moussaud to name a few are better than the others, or prejudice in some way to the other forces. There are different mission profiles that each accepts and operates in why does one have to be better than the other? Why can't it be that on a given day, there is a right for that scenario?
Should work that way in an ideal world, but military units have a lot more internal and external discipline than groups of 'normal people', even when soldiers are on vacation.
I have never been on a diving boat with divers from different organisation without there being some tension between groups.
Sidemount increases those tensions because the sidemount divers are hard to predict by only seeing their equipment.
It is hard to guess experience without having some sidemount experience oneself, even watching them during equipment setup.
Could always be experienced technical divers, but could also be some OWDs on their first dive without supervision.
Most of the experienced sidemounters are early adopters and therefore normally more anarchist than military minded.
It is much more likely for a GUE/DIR diver to be vary of an unknown sidemount diver than anything else.
I have never been on a diving boat with divers from different organisation without there being some tension between groups.
Sidemount increases those tensions because the sidemount divers are hard to predict by only seeing their equipment.
It is hard to guess experience without having some sidemount experience oneself, even watching them during equipment setup.
Could always be experienced technical divers, but could also be some OWDs on their first dive without supervision.
Most of the experienced sidemounters are early adopters and therefore normally more anarchist than military minded.
It is much more likely for a GUE/DIR diver to be vary of an unknown sidemount diver than anything else.
beester
Contributor
I'm not wary of you or any diver.. and I would drink a pint of beer with you after a dive. I'll dive with you but not on challenging dives, because you are an unknown POINT! Has nothing to do with you diving backmount, sidemount, rebreather or diving in your skinny speedo's. In order for me to do more challenging dives I'll need to get to know you better and have some work up dives. This has nothing to do with agency, which cards you carry, what paper credentials you have or what flavor of icecream you like.
This is not just GUE practice... every good technical diver will do this, no matter what system or equipment he uses. If you step in the water and start doing a big dive with someone you don't know, haven't trained with... just based on how he sets his system up before the dive you are NUTS... not anarchist
Btw I'm talking about a big dive, not a 200 minute clean up dive in a pool, that does not count Because GUE standards and procedures are very strictly adhered do and there is very little variance in quality of trainers and instructions... you can do exactly the NUTS thing above... if you are part of the GUE club, I will know without having dived with you that you adhere to certain standards and procedures and have followed some difficult courses. I litterally can step in the water with you and without any further discussion of work up dives can do a 2.5km cave dive with you, which will go very smoothly because you will behave in a very predictable manner. That for me is an enormous benefit. Within the GUE forums you have guys saying... hey I'm in Mexico next week, I'm C2-T1 trained anybody up for some nice cavedives? And then you'll have other people chiming in saying, yep I'll be there as well, you can join us... etc etc etc.
The bad side of this standards is of course that GUE will not change on a whim. That adopting new technology takes time (be that sidemount, rebreather, recreational courses, whatever).
ScubaInChicago
Contributor
Interesting, I've done 250' dives with GUE divers I've just met. I don't see why doing a 7500' dive is that big a deal.
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