why did GUE , DIR take so long to adopt sidemount.

[Razorista]

I'm asking you agian:

I am telling you again:

Without much success because you don't take feedback and don't want to learn.

I am learning. But I do not need you personally for feedback.
A teacher like you makes me leave class flipping a finger on the way out.
In real life I never talk to people behaving like this.

You post video on you tube carrying 2 19 liter tanks and you say you to small and weak? YOU KNOW that's a lie.

Yes, thats easy.
As you should know 19 liter tanks are fairly close to neutral when empty.
Putting on 6 tanks is a pain and takes to much time for my taste.
Sttarting a dive with arms weakened is not my idea of a good dive.

DIving 'indoor' is like driving a car in a parking lot.

In case of Tauchcenter Nullzeit it is more like being at a NASCAR location, or preparing to go Paris-Dakar next year.

 

[Bennno]

'Tauchcenter Nullzeit' is a shallow pool.

 

[Razorista]

Have you ever been there?
It is a shallow 16 million! liter pool, located completely under ground.
Dark, heavy reinforced concrete walls and ceilings, some of the most extreme restrictions I know (some nobody except me has ever managed to pass through) 30x50 cm in a concrete wall of more than a foot thickness.

In some areas people use divesites like that for cave training introduction dives and guard access even more than with normal caves, because they are (undeserved, in my opinon) thought to be challenging and highly dangerous.

 

[Bennno]

It's a pool and nobody does cave training there.

 

[Razorista]

You know the Moeller Bunker?
Not much different, not far away, used for cave training for years or even decades.
I think that it is completely closed to the public now.

 

[Razorista]

Regarding Nullzeit, there are often people visiting for equipment tests, drysuit checks and things like that.
Of course you see DIR, GUE and Cave Divers there regularly:
Testing a new light or backup, new camera equipment or just attachment security before losing something at a drop-off...
Also for line and marker training, skill checks, first dive after an injury...
Or simply because they can be sure to have a warm and relaxing dive.

Several Instructors use the wreck and cave there to expose their students to the environment before taking them to a real wreck or recomment them to their cave diving instructor.
People are testing rebreathers and scooters there (rarely, but happens occasionally).

Most important to me for years now:
It is a place visited by hundreds of sidemount divers already, in an area with perhaps only handful more than that existing.

 

[beester]

Exactly.
For most people it is one to three days of training and never looking back.

@beester
It is actually very funny for me to see that you and some others really seem to think I am bashing GUE or something.
Especially funny since I am more or less 'only Padi trained'.
I know my place ;-)

Strange going from "bashing" to "knowing your place"... To be honest I don't understand where you would get either idea from?! Maybe you need to speak to some more GUE divers? I and most GUE divers I know will dive with every and anybody, as long as we have a feeling that they respect the sport and have some awareness. I will limit certain more challenging (for me) dives to the "GUE club" or divers I know very well and understand the protocols we use. Why... simply because that's the good part about GUE... you have a worldwide network of likeminded and trained divers with who you can jump in the water without any previous discussion or long "get to know eachother" dives. I literally can jump into a french cave and do a long deep dive with someone I didn't know before, because I know if he had the same training I had that his awareness, skills, procedures and underwater communication (passive and active) will be in tune with my expectations... I'll come back to network in a bit

Exactly.
I really like GUE and also other DIR-Style agencies and would probably have found my own place there by now, where it not for the fact that they do not want to work with sidemount-only divers.

I have a sidemount friend (see a vimeo clip of him below) who I've known all my live... In Benelux he is known as a very good sidemount diver. Next to that his roping skills and speleo skills are very high. Because of this he was invited to a GUE project in the FR Ardeche region. No formal GUE training whatsoever... So there goes.

Next I know other GUE divers who dive sidemount as well (if it's warranted by the dive). Of course they are foremost GUE divers and only secondly sidemount divers.

Sidemount brings that back into diving and especially technical diving.
There is not much that a GUE fundamentals diver can do a sidemount beginner could not easily copy and surpass in a day.

I don't believe that is correct. Backmount is standardized. Meaning for every body type I can fit the harnass in exactly the same way (the procedure is the same). Same whit all the other setup (double set, heavy fins)... basically I can set you up in half an hour and you'll be balanced. Some finetuning needs to be done with v-weights if needed (centre of gravity).

With sidemount your setup and fine-tuning takes much longer. Because depending on body type you'll have to adjust a lot of stuff... dive, adjust something, dive again, adjust again, etc. Every time you change tanks size/volume/steel or alu you need to adjust again. Of course you can dive from the first go but to be in total equilibrium you'll need to do the work.

Diving to extreme depth and things like that have all been done in sidemount configs.
Sometimes by much less experienced or physically fit divers than ever before.

You really think that is a good idea? For someone less experienced or physically fit to dive to extreme depths and do challenging dives? So you are saying that by adopting sidemount that you can fasttrack into challenging dives? Why ... it's just equipment.? It doesn't change your experience, it doesn't change your awareness, team communication, ability to handle taskloading... You are a funny guy.

Then the rapid development 'diving' in general is experiencing the past few years already will leave you behind.

Well I'm not really interested if a certain equipment setup leaves me behind. Because I'm part of a global club, so I'll always be able to do the dives I plan to do. I'll always be able to reach for certain goals. I'm interested in sidemount, I really am... I have some good intimate friends who dive it a lot, so I understand most of it's features, pro's and cons.

I personally (IMO) don't believe that it's a necessary tool for recreational diving. It's a great tool for the diving shown in below clip (by a good friend of mine)

In any case my last point is the following. I clearly understand that you are very enthusiastic about the sport and the setup. I like that... but I also sense that you have a lot of people who are annoyed by you or don't like you in your local diving community.

You might think that's not important... but the point is when you do some more challenging dives you'll need the help of that local community to support you... no use being the topdog if nobody wants to follow you or support you. I've helped on some set up dives for other divers, and I've been helped as well... all part of the great technical dive community! Don't burn yourself, or you'll be a solo-diver for the rest of your carreer.

 

[Razorista]

... I will limit certain more challenging (for me) dives to the "GUE club" ...

That is he only part I do not like about GUE - I dive with anyone, anywhere, anytime.
I do not even ask about experience, training, logged dives, agency or anything 'paper related'.
I look at the equipment dry and when entering the water, I generally like to talk about 'diving', but only on descending to 5m I decide how this day will go (even with a regular dive partner I already think I know)

I have a sidemount friend ... I know other GUE divers who dive sidemount ... foremost GUE divers and ...

Good you are open minded I see.
As I said, you can start with sidemount anytime you like.
Later is less fun, I think.

I don't believe that is correct. Backmount is standardized. ...

Sidemount is rapidly developing, but standards have been established already.
Most users like to stay more flexible then they remember from being backmounters before that, however.
Personally I prefer democratic development, that is not the official GUE approach.

With sidemount your setup and fine-tuning takes much longer. ...

Only with inadequate training.

Because depending on body type you'll have to adjust a lot of stuff... dive, adjust something, dive again, adjust again, etc.

Tanks and tank weights (excluding extremly heavy and large tanks) ) are a nuisance at max for someone experienced (and I mean 10-20 dives 'experienced') and with a good setup for one type of tank.

Every time you change tanks size/volume/steel or alu you need to adjust again.

No!

Of course you can dive from the first go but to be in total equilibrium you'll need to do the work.

Most backmounters never find equilibrium.
And most can only do one position.

Sidemount world is true 360 degree movement - unthinkable for most backmount divers.

You really think that is a good idea? For someone less experienced or physically fit to dive to extreme depths and do challenging dives? So you are saying that by adopting sidemount that you can fasttrack into challenging dives? Why ... it's just equipment.? It doesn't change your experience, it doesn't change your awareness, team communication, ability to handle taskloading...

People also get older, develop back problems ....

You are a funny guy.

Thanks ;-)

In any case my last point is the following. I clearly understand that you are very enthusiastic about the sport and the setup.

That I am.

I like that... but I also sense that you have a lot of people who are annoyed by you or don't like you in your local diving community.

I always say: for every few friends you also make an enemy. Sometimes friends become enemies and back again.

You might think that's not important... but the point is when you do some more challenging dives you'll need the help of that local community to support you... no use being the topdog if nobody wants to follow you or support you. I've helped on some set up dives for other divers, and I've been helped as well... all part of the great technical dive community! Don't burn yourself, or you'll be a solo-diver for the rest of your carreer.

I would not have a problem, if I did not prefer different dives to most people available.
I don't like short dives for example, even in winter - hard to find other divers that don't disappoint.
I never cancel a dive because 'weather' or 'visibility', even at the the most boring site.
People have family, I don't.
So I am constantly searching for and finding new people to dive with.
It can be a lot of work but it is also fun and as long as I get one good dive a week out of that at least (and ocasionaly a lot more), I could not be happier with the situation, have been for years.
Only when my drysuit fails more than once in a row I get a bit...irritated. ;-)
A buddy of mine has the same problem for a few weeks now, seems to be a common trait among cold water divers.
So I only get about 2-4 dives a week at the moment, one of those feeding sturgeon from the hand at the place mentioned above,

I will never understand why every disccussion has to rotate around 'personal qualification'.
But I am 'qualified', have been for years, so I do not fear that kind of 'peeing contest' anymore.

But wasn't topic:
Why GUE does not like sidemount ? - not: why people like Bennno dislike me.
I know why and it makes me giggle every time I think about it.
That divers can be this unsociable also makes me angry - but as I told you above: I tolerate even that and just go sidemount.

I am not that old yet, but in those discussions I feel old as hell - like one off the 'wise old people' to be precise. ;-) (just a joke)

 

[Patoux01]

That is he only part I do not like about GUE - I dive with anyone, anywhere, anytime.

The problem is, you lack the fundamental understanding of what a team is... As simple as that.
The kind of dives where the "GUE club" applies is not the diving you do...

 

[Razorista]

The problem is, you lack the fundamental understanding of what a team is... As simple as that.
The kind of dives where the "GUE club" applies is not the diving you do...

I understand that very well.
Would like it, they do not like sidemount - not my problem