why did GUE , DIR take so long to adopt sidemount.

[beester]

@Razorista :

Which GUE instructors do you know? It hink I know quite a lot of them (at least in Europe) and I think I know who does sidemount.

I believe your assumptions are incorrect. I'm no instructor trainer, nor member of the GUE board... I'm just a GUE noob. But my personal opinion is the following:

- GUEs core thought is that sidemount is a tool used for specific dives. NOT all dives. So if they create new curriculum for sidemount it's going to take this premises in account. It will never be an entry level course (rec / fundies). It will probably be a C2 kind of course or even a speciality after C2 (like dpv cave). Just like the ccr courses are set up right now. I would be very surprised if they would set it up in another way. This btw has nothing to do with no longer being the top of the foodchain, it has to do with encorporating it in a standardised system without losing the benefits of both (sidemount and standardised procedures).

Your free willy freediving example is not relevant because it's about your personal goals... and your goal might be to be a diver feeling totally free, mine is a bit different... I want to see stuff not many people have seen (deeper wrecks, longer caves) and there freedom is irrelevant because the moment you start doing more serious dives also in sidemount you'll have to add stages, which will limit your freedom as well. (I'm talking 4-5 additional stages, and yes in sidemount you handle them differently than with GUE). Of course you could do these less free dives sidemount as well, but I've done +800 dives in backmount and think I know this system and the team based procedures... if I would have to reset the clock it would take me another 800 dives to get to the same level for no real benefit. In the end there are some dives I can't do because I don't dive sidemount, but there are many more dives which I can't do because they become impractical on open circuit ;-) And yes most rebreathers are backmount

So my personal progression will be more multiple stage diving until I reach the rebreather threshold more and more and then probably rebreather diving instead of starting back from zero for a sidemount system which won't have additional benefits for my kind of diving in any case. Yes you can do most technical diving in sidemount... of course... but you can do most technical diving in backmount as well, and it's a system which is easier standardised, which is GUE's core.

Finally I understand why GUE is using this backmount platform. Because from a didactical point of view it's very easy to teach and use. It's beginning with the end in mind, and trust me it's very easy to get someone without any backplate/wing/drysuit/double sets in this system and within 15 dives they will be a stable diver. It's about details but I know these details quite well, and instructors of course even better so it's very easy to set someone up to be able to dive like this.

So what's in your opinion the advantages of sidemount over backmount. Both in recreational diving and in tech diving? And why do you think it will take over the world? I'm sure it will take over some parts of the world where sumpdiving is the only way (UK, Australia, are good examples), yes sidemount will be the only system and these will be pinnacle dives. But most pinnacle dives are rebreather dives already, and there aren't that many sidemount rebreather divers.

Finally what kind of dives do you do, to have such strong opinions on a system?

 

[Bennno]

if I would have to reset the clock it would take me another 800 dives to get to the same level for no real benefit.

You wouldn't have to 'restart the clock', SM is still just diving. You can dive in a team in SM as much as you can in BM.
The one major advantage SM has over BM in tec dives, IMHO, is that you can see you valves and fist stages and that you can feather your valves.
Also, SM can be as easily standardized as BM.
The other stuff, I mostly agree on.

 

[bamafan]

You wouldn't have to 'restart the clock', SM is still just diving. You can dive in a team in SM as much as you can in BM.
The one major advantage SM has over BM in tec dives, IMHO, is that you can see you valves and fist stages and that you can feather your valves.
Also, SM can be as easily standardized as BM.
The other stuff, I mostly agree on.

The conversion to SM from BM isn't a hard one at all. A good instructor or mentor and a few dives and you will be up to speed. I personally feel that SM might not be the optimum configuration for all dives but it is way more flexible. I can't think of a BM dive that you can't do in SM but I definitely know of a lot of SM dives that can't be done in BM. I do think SM lends itself well to cave diving and can be done off a boat but to me BM is easier on a rocking pitching boat.

 

[Bennno]

@bamafan
Couldn't agree more. SM off a boat works but kind of sucks, especially when diving off a RIB and when it's choppy.

 

[Kevrumbo]

As a traveling Tech Diver, you also don't have to rely on the Dive-ops at your overseas destination to have dedicated BM manifold twinsets for rental, or bringing your own BM manifold/valves/bands for installation like I used to do --all you need now for double tech cylinder dives are SM/deco sling kits, regs & harness/wing.

 

[Razorista]

The conversion to SM from BM isn't a hard one at all. ....

Exactly.
For most people it is one to three days of training and never looking back.

@beester
It is actually very funny for me to see that you and some others really seem to think I am bashing GUE or something.
Especially funny since I am more or less 'only Padi trained'.
I know my place ;-)

I really like GUE and also other DIR-Style agencies and would probably have found my own place there by now, where it not for the fact that they do not want to work with sidemount-only divers.

Since you seem so interressted in my personal story I will share some of it with you:
I discovered the sidemount option in 2010 and started in 2011.
Late internationally, but I became one of the first to own a Razor2 system locally and started using it vehemently.
I was a recreational diver then with only a few years of experience a a mere 50-60 dives in total and not very enthusiastic about increasing that - I expected to retire before making my 500. dive, now I do not even remember that one anymore.

Sidemount changed everything for me, with 250 (mostly recreational) dives each year on average.
After some initial difficulties I found an experienced backmount instructor even crazier than myself to dive with and later got some solo diving experience.
Missing any form of local feedback or instruction I got very active on several forums and gained a lot of notoriety there.

By now however most of my former and current frequent dive partners are sidemount instructors for some organization or another, a 'fate' I manage to avoid myself.
But I have become very 'thick skinned' regarding insults, especially coming from people with a lot of backmount experience.
I rather dive with those people then starting discussions in real live - on the internet it sometimes seems to be unavoidable.

Most of the 'DIR minded people' I met over the years have at least done their fundamentals by now (several with most of the available local Instructors at that event).

I am fortunate to live near the location of the largest watersports trade fair in the country.

I also live near the largest training site in the country used (also) by technical divers for equipment checks (mentioned earlier).
A giant 16million liter indoor facility in a derelict industrial building - and admittedly one of my favorite dive sites.
By now I stopped logging dives there shorter than 80 minutes, but I still count some as my most challenging dives.
Last task there was catching several 1m sturgeon with net and hands without hurting them (and about 100 goldfish and other small ones) for cleaning.
Ever had a filled 2000 liter habitat explode around you? A once in a lifetime experience.
Or this: There is a lot of challenge to be had at less challenging dive sites - you just have to find it.

...anyway: in the last few years I believe to have met about half of the active and inactive GUE instructors in Germany in some way, in casual situations mostly, not at 'GUE dive-sites'.
And to me they do not differ much from other divers of the same experience and cert level.

Here in Germany there are strong 'no-DIR', 'no-GUE' groups that are even more vehement about their interpretation of DIR principles.
I do not see a difference except in the color and supplier of their equipment.
___________________________
Which brings me to the interessting part (to me at least):

Your free willy freediving example is not relevant because it's about your personal goals...

No, it is not irrelevant!
Diving is control of the water and the body movement.

Sidemount brings that back into diving and especially technical diving.
There is not much that a GUE fundamentals diver can do a sidemount beginner could not easily copy and surpass in a day.

Diving to extreme depth and things like that have all been done in sidemount configs.
Sometimes by much less experienced or physically fit divers than ever before.

So my personal progression will be more multiple stage diving until I reach the rebreather threshold ...

Then the rapid development 'diving' in general is experiencing the past few years already will leave you behind.

But that's no problem!!
You can hop onto the onrushing sidemount train any time you like.
Trust me, any experience you have by then will not be wasted - it will just become several times more useful and effective.

Finally I understand why GUE is using this backmount platform. Because from a didactical point of view it's very easy to teach and use.

That's just what sidemounters everywhere are talking about.
Sidemount is easy to do, easy to learn. A lot easier then backmount - especially when it comes to using more than two stages.
Backmount is just something most people deciding policies already know.

So what's in your opinion the advantages of sidemount over backmount. Both in recreational diving and in tech diving?

Everything and then some.
Sidemount is DIR.
Using the right tool for the job.
It just happens there are only very few dives where sidemount would not be the right tool.
Next to no diver using sidemount with adequate training and experience will give backmount another thought.

And why do you think it will take over the world?

In don't! Really, I don't think or say that in the sense you mean it.
I think it already has in a different way, but most of the world will probably not know about it for years to come or probably never will.

I'm sure it will take over some parts of the world where sumpdiving is the only way...

Harnesses and sidemounted gas have always been important in sump diving.
Practically from the beginning, for decades at least and longer than even the idea of using that for diving exists.
Most of those cave explorers have little use for 'diving' comparable to what GUE or most people on this forum would understand.

Finally what kind of dives do you do, to have such strong opinions on a system?

Any dive I like.
I am fairly experienced with stages and deko by now with several hundred of dives longer then 120 minutes.
But I do not dive 'gases', only recreational depth. 50 meter pressure I get more often staying dry than getting wet.
Not much choice there for me, as the next body of water with more then 40 meters is a 3 hours drive away and 'nobody' there uses or sells helium, so I would not dive below 45 meters there and never reached that depth (cold there).

I also do not feel comfortable enough with overhead environments to go into cave diving yet.
However for a few month I was one of only 4 divers with access to a local artificial cave (nothing much, even for a 'caveless' area, we only have mines here).
At least I know very well all the things I don't know and should not repeat ;-)

I also like to help with wrecks, habitats and generally building things in lakes, cleanups or doing any type of underwater search.
Most of the time there are some local GUE or at least DIR divers among those helping too.

Generally I am just trying to have a good time myself.
For me all the discussions are becoming more hilarious with every dive I do.
I have been watching the development for several years now and sidemount is convincing enough even to sway it's most outspoken enemies, if they ever dare to try it with a good instructor.
We all just have to sit back and watch now, time will tell and I do not think one has to be 'supernatural' to know the outcome ;-)

 

[Bennno]

Missing any form of local feedback or instruction I got very active on several forums and gained a lot of notoriety there.

But I have become very 'thick skinned' regarding insults, especially coming from people with a lot of backmount experience.

See, this is the problem. You're not willing to take any feedback and you are not willing to learn. People that know more than you about SM diving and diving in general have tried to help you many times but you wont take advice because you think you are an expert.
Remember the time you claimed you were the most expierienced SM diver in Germany?
By the time you found your beloved Razor on youtube, a bunch of other people (me being one of them) were already diving that thing. And BTW: The Razor is not even a good rig for cold water. If you would be open to try new things, you would know that by now.

The truth is that YOU have been insulting people constantly, that's why you were banned from so many forums. In your opinion EVERYBODY is difficult, right? Did it ever cross your mind that you could be wrong about some things? Just listen once in a while and you would learn something.

 

[Razorista]

Who is insulting someone Bennno??
Typical

 

[Razorista]

Remember the time you claimed you were the most expierienced SM diver in Germany?

Never. People are making that up about me.
My customer ID at the gosidemount store was 2 digit however, yours too?

By the time you found your beloved Razor on youtube, a bunch of other people (me being one of them) were already diving that thing.

Really?
You got your hands on a pre-release model?
I did not even know that was possible for anyone outside Mexico.
Or do you mean a Razor1? Hard even to compare those and might explain your false assumptions below.

And BTW: The Razor is not even a good rig for cold water. If you would be open to try new things, you would know that by now.

I have been diving the Razor for years now.
Mostly in cold water. To a depth exceeding 40 meters and with divetimes of up to 220 minutes.
I have used up to 5 stages and tested up to seven (6-7 without much success, I freely admit, I am small and weak)
Still, I have no idea where your verifiably false assumption is coming from.

The truth is that YOU have been insulting people constantly, that's why you were banned from so many forums.

Bullsh*t. I get banned because the likes of you cannot stand that others can be competent too and think they can compensate for their lack of understanding with aggressiveness.
That is why I mostly do not get banned from forums or facebook groups and the like at all.
I just leave when moderation sucks to much and tend to get into fights with moderators over that at the time I start to lose interest in staying.

I have no problem with that. I do not need you or anyones help anymore.
If I have questions I can simply ask people who know - you not being among those, it seems.

 

[Bennno]

I'm asking you agian:

Did it ever cross your mind that you could be wrong about some things?

Mostly in cold water. To a depth exceeding 40 meters and with divetimes of up to 220 minutes.
I have used up to 5 stages and tested up to seven (6-7 without much success, I freely admit, I am small and weak)

Without much success because you don't take feedback and don't want to learn.
You post video on you tube carrying 2 19 liter tanks and you say you to small and weak? YOU KNOW that's a lie.

DIving 'indoor' is like driving a car in a parking lot.