Advanced Open Water

[Nasser]

The term "Advanced" seems to annoy some people... regardless of what you call it, the fact that one is getting additional education - hopefully with a good instructor/mentor is a good thing.

However, even if this person has an Advanced Trimix Cert. with hundreds of dives, if this diver has only been diving in one particular environment - i.e. warm clear water, then if this highly trained diver chooses to dive the cold murkier waters of the NorthEast Atlantic in the U.S. then they are effectively a beginner... or at the very least need to ease into learning to dive this environment and gain experience in these conditions before tackling the Andrea Doria.

Experience, certifications, and qualifications can be very relative.

 

[Hawkwood]

... When I did my 1 deep dive in my advanced class. I didn't learn anything about deep diving except I could do a math and write my name at 70ft. Lol...

Which is why that "skill" (the timed test) has not been part of the AOW "Deep Adventure Dive" since at least 2010.

For a lot of folks, the timed test did not show them anything and the "teaching point" is lost on them.

When I did my AOW in 2007, my instructor used knots as the skill - I tied the knot faster underwater than above.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

That's why I have students do an actual dive related skill. Running a reel at 90 ft followed by an out of air drill as we start the ascent. Quite easy to see the level of narcosis.

 

[The Chairman]

Having only one or two tasks to accomplish will rarely reveal impairment. Running a reel actually entails a number of skills which I think is smart. If I'm trying to show a student how narced they are, I'll assign a number of tasks to accomplish on the surface, like six or so. Then we see how many they actually attempt or accomplish while at depth.

In addition, having them do tasks that we practice over and over will rarely reveal narcosis. Do you really need to think to share air? Consequently, I'll ask them to perform skills like take a bearing on some feature I know they'll see on the dive. Write down registration numbers on a sunken boat. Count how many kicks from X to Y and so forth. Narcosis affects your ability to solve problems more than anything. Unless you run into a significant problem, you might never see how impaired you are.

I call it the Bovine index because it's like becoming a cow. A cow can follow the path down to the lake. But introduce a problem, like a tree falling across the path, and all bets are off. I'm sure the cow will finally figure it out, but underwater we don't have a lot of time. Small problems while narced can become deadly. It's why narcosis is a silent killer. Too many divers trust their feelings, when in fact, narcosis can amplify your feelings of omnipotence. That being said, I do this only for the deep specialty and for Dive Master. AOW is not the time to put a student in that situation.

 

[lb7047]

So has there been any world problems solved since I went diving yesterday

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---------- Post added July 6th, 2015 at 08:20 PM ----------

Almost had to do an air dive if I didn't get my haskel working

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[BenjaminF]

So has there been any world problems solved since I went diving yesterday

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---------- Post added July 6th, 2015 at 08:20 PM ----------

Almost had to do an air dive if I didn't get my haskel working

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You get to go diving for not getting a Haskell program working??? Where do I sign up for this? [emoji50]

 

[KDAD]

So has there been any world problems solved since I went diving yesterday

Thanks, lb7047. There have actually been some world problems solved since you went diving yesterday - at least in my world. I realize, along with most others here, that AOW is a joke. I am recently OW certified through SDI with 9 logged dives. Can I go to SDI's Advanced Adventure (the equivalent of PADI's AOW) right now? Sure. But just because I could doesn't mean I am going to. The AOW course is only to give an overview into five different diving specialties. For example, SDI's Deep is only one deep dive to 100 ft. It does not make an advanced diver. I am not going to take that route for my advanced training.

The route for my advanced diver training will be to take each of the full specialties, earning a certification for each of them, and to take them in a logical order with enough dives in between so that I am more fully prepared for the next specialty. I would then end up with SDI's Advanced Diver card and probably actually be an advanced diver. Say I choose Nav, Nitrox, Deep, and Wreck. Four solid specialties that should make a truly advanced diver ready to start diving wrecks in the NE. I could take Nav first and then continue navigating over a few additional dives in different environments with increasing difficulty to solidify that training before moving on to the next specialty. One of the post-navigation dives can be diving after a group of AOW students mucked up the visibility and I really need a compass. Move on to Nitrox and then Deep and finally Wreck maybe earning one or two more cards such as Solo or Sidemount on the way.

So will I miss some advanced dives this coming August while on vacation because I didn't jump right in to AOW after OW and get 'certified'? Sure, I will but as stated above I want to be an advanced diver not just have the certification. But I know next year's vacation I will not only have the certification, but truly be an advanced diver (although something tells me that the DM this go around will be quite happy with my current skills and would probably let me on an advanced dive if I asked if not coming outright and inviting me).

 

[lb7047]

Thanks, lb7047. There have actually been some world problems solved since you went diving yesterday - at least in my world. I realize, along with most others here, that AOW is a joke. I am recently OW certified through SDI with 9 logged dives. Can I go to SDI's Advanced Adventure (the equivalent of PADI's AOW) right now? Sure. But just because I could doesn't mean I am going to. The AOW course is only to give an overview into five different diving specialties. For example, SDI's Deep is only one deep dive to 100 ft. It does not make an advanced diver. I am not going to take that route for my advanced training.

The route for my advanced diver training will be to take each of the full specialties, earning a certification for each of them, and to take them in a logical order with enough dives in between so that I am more fully prepared for the next specialty. I would then end up with SDI's Advanced Diver card and probably actually be an advanced diver. Say I choose Nav, Nitrox, Deep, and Wreck. Four solid specialties that should make a truly advanced diver ready to start diving wrecks in the NE. I could take Nav first and then continue navigating over a few additional dives in different environments with increasing difficulty to solidify that training before moving on to the next specialty. One of the post-navigation dives can be diving after a group of AOW students mucked up the visibility and I really need a compass. Move on to Nitrox and then Deep and finally Wreck maybe earning one or two more cards such as Solo or Sidemount on the way.

So will I miss some advanced dives this coming August while on vacation because I didn't jump right in to AOW after OW and get 'certified'? Sure, I will but as stated above I want to be an advanced diver not just have the certification. But I know next year's vacation I will not only have the certification, but truly be an advanced diver (although something tells me that the DM this go around will be quite happy with my current skills and would probably let me on an advanced dive if I asked if not coming outright and inviting me).

KDAD. You have the right idea. I wish more people would think like you on training. Any training is better then no training, i just wish they would give it another name besides advanced. I learned more about diving by just diving. I wish other agencies would go the same path as SDI and SSI with their advanced program. We live in a world where we want instant gradification. There is a dive shop around me that teaches the open water dive course pool and classroom in just one weekend. I have been in the water with these people OMG. It shows you how safe scuba is when these people survive. LOL. The dive shop I support has the students on the last pool session spend 2 hours without touching the bottom of the pool and all the skills has to be done neutral buoyancy.They are not allowed to use their hands to pull themselves thrugh the water. Doesn't that make since?
Most not all instructors teach their students to be professional kneelers on the bottom. All skills is done in a semi circle kneeling on the bottom,most is over weighted so the students will stay on the bottom to make the instructors life eaiser. Good example look at how much the keys has been damaged by divers over the years. If you think about it all of the training agencies is a book salesman. All they sale is training materials and all has to meet the minimum RSTC training guidelines. Some exceed it like SDI and SSI and some won't let you let you. And I won't even touch on how stupid it is to teach a diver to give the out of air diver the octo instead of the primary. I just get tired seeing divers that shouldn't be in the water. Because of everyone's busy schedules I forsee that this will get worse overtime because they can't commit to a 5 to 6 week course. Training agencies will keep lowering their standards so they can meet the demands of a busy schedule. No matter what agency an instructor teaches for all should have the same goal to teach safe and comfortable divers. It's OK to fail someone, not all people are cut out for diving.

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---------- Post added July 7th, 2015 at 08:02 AM ----------

KDAD. You have the right idea. I wish more people would think like you on training. Any training is better then no training, i just wish they would give it another name besides advanced. I learned more about diving by just diving. I wish other agencies would go the same path as SDI and SSI with their advanced program. We live in a world where we want instant gradification. There is a dive shop around me that teaches the open water dive course pool and classroom in just one weekend. I have been in the water with these people OMG. It shows you how safe scuba is when these people survive. LOL. The dive shop I support has the students on the last pool session spend 2 hours without touching the bottom of the pool and all the skills has to be done neutral buoyancy.They are not allowed to use their hands to pull themselves thrugh the water. Doesn't that make since?
Most not all instructors teach their students to be professional kneelers on the bottom. All skills is done in a semi circle kneeling on the bottom,most is over weighted so the students will stay on the bottom to make the instructors life eaiser. Good example look at how much the keys has been damaged by divers over the years. If you think about it all of the training agencies is a book salesman. All they sale is training materials and all has to meet the minimum RSTC training guidelines. Some exceed it like SDI and SSI and some won't let you let you. And I won't even touch on how stupid it is to teach a diver to give the out of air diver the octo instead of the primary. I just get tired seeing divers that shouldn't be in the water. Because of everyone's busy schedules I forsee that this will get worse overtime because they can't commit to a 5 to 6 week course. Training agencies will keep lowering their standards so they can meet the demands of a busy schedule. No matter what agency an instructor teaches for all should have the same goal to teach safe and comfortable divers. It's OK to fail someone, not all people are cut out for diving.

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Oops forgot the main point I wanted to make. Now you take an openwater diver who barely passed or should have been failed go directly into a advanced class and survives the 5 dives now they are considered Advanced

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[AdivingBel]

Hope you guys have fun competing for the Gold in the next scuba olympics...the rest of us are going to be out diving and having fun.

(Feel free to mod, Mods...I realize this is the basic forum, but Wow... just Wow )

 

[lb7047]

Hope you guys have fun competing for the Gold in the next scuba olympics...the rest of us are going to be out diving and having fun.

(Feel free to mod, Mods...I realize this is the basic forum, but Wow... just Wow )

So AdivingBel how many unsafe divers have you seen in all your diving brother

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