Advanced Open Water

[tursiops]

lb7047 and KDAD, you guys need to get a room.


KDAD, just three little problems with your rant: (1) AOW does not intend to make you an advanced diver, just to advance you beyond the Open Water cert. you are hung up on a misinterpretation of the name of the certification. (2) Taking all the specialties instead of the AOW sampler cert is excellent....but that does not make you an advanced diver either! All it does is give you more training. To become an advanced diver, you need to do lots of diving, in lots of different conditions. And after you've taken all those specialties, make sure you get the AOW certification card too, because that level of certification is probably needed to do Rescue and some other specialties. (3) You'll need 100 logged dives to get into the Solo class. No amount of training replaces that prereq.

 

[jonhall]

For example, SDI's Deep is only one deep dive to 100 ft. It does not make an advanced diver. I am not going to take that route for my advanced training.

As others have said, me included, AOW is not for advanced training. That would be a misnomer (haven't seen that term used yet referring to AOW, so thought I'd use it.) It's to advance your diving experience.

The route for my advanced diver training will be to take each of the full specialties, earning a certification for each of them, and to take them in a logical order with enough dives in between so that I am more fully prepared for the next specialty. I would then end up with SDI's Advanced Diver card and probably actually be an advanced diver. Say I choose Nav, Nitrox, Deep, and Wreck. Four solid specialties that should make a truly advanced diver ready to start diving wrecks in the NE. I could take Nav first and then continue navigating over a few additional dives in different environments with increasing difficulty to solidify that training before moving on to the next specialty. One of the post-navigation dives can be diving after a group of AOW students mucked up the visibility and I really need a compass. Move on to Nitrox and then Deep and finally Wreck maybe earning one or two more cards such as Solo or Sidemount on the way.

I do like the way you have laid out a plan for yourself to take courses to become a more advanced diver. It sounds as if you are very committed to the process. I'm not as committed as you, although if I were taking a special trip that required, say cave diving experience, I would take the required course for the specialty certification. Getting all of those certifications can be $$$.

So will I miss some advanced dives this coming August while on vacation because I didn't jump right in to AOW after OW and get 'certified'? Sure, I will but as stated above I want to be an advanced diver not just have the certification. But I know next year's vacation I will not only have the certification, but truly be an advanced diver (although something tells me that the DM this go around will be quite happy with my current skills and would probably let me on an advanced dive if I asked if not coming outright and inviting me).

As a vacation diver, since getting OW in 1998, my experience is that many, if not most, outfits will take you on dives that supposedly require AOW, so you won't necessarily miss some "advanced dives". Every year on my vacations in mostly warm, clear water, I am taken 70 ft. and deeper, on wreck swim throughs, and on drift dives with the dive shops I've gone with, and work with my compass when I do shore dives. No AOW needed.

To say that in the time from one vacation to the next you will be an advanced diver is also not necessarily so. You may be "advanced" by way of certification (just like an AOW with 5 dives), but only truly advanced if you are able to practice those specialties repeatedly and get lots of diving experience. I currently dive 4 weeks out of the year (vacations) which is far less that what a lot of the seasoned divers on SB dive, but know I'm a much better diver than people (including advanced) I wind up on a dive boat with.

I'm planning to get my AOW this fall (on vacation) just in case I run into one of those diving shops that may require AOW, although in my diving experience, that seems to be extremely rare, although others have documented it on SB. I probably would never have even entertained the idea if not for reading SB!

One of the post-navigation dives can be diving after a group of AOW students mucked up the visibility and I really need a compass.

I have to share about several boat dives I was on with an "advanced diver" who had a $2000+ camera/light setup. He was an "expert" in many things. He nosed that camera into every nook and cranny there was something to take a picture of with little regard to his lights hitting coral, preventing others from seeing, and mucking up the bottom. Just saying anyone can muck up the bottom.

 

[lb7047]

lb7047 and KDAD, you guys need to get a room.


KDAD, just three little problems with your rant: (1) AOW does not intend to make you an advanced diver, just to advance you beyond the Open Water cert. you are hung up on a misinterpretation of the name of the certification. (2) Taking all the specialties instead of the AOW sampler cert is excellent....but that does not make you an advanced diver either! All it does is give you more training. To become an advanced diver, you need to do lots of diving, in lots of different conditions. And after you've taken all those specialties, make sure you get the AOW certification card too, because that level of certification is probably needed to do Rescue and some other specialties. (3) You'll need 100 logged dives to get into the Solo class. No amount of training replaces that prereq.

Your right Tursiops. I know it's beating a dead horse. Do you know how many Advanced divers I have seen beating their chest and introducing their selfs as an Advanced diver with their chest puffed out with 10 dives. Lol. What I'm getting at and that's all. The system is giving these divers a false since of security with the word advanced on their. Tell me you can't see this. Let's call it the dive sampler platter like olive garden tour of Italy lol

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[KDAD]

Was I somehow agreeing with b047? I guess so but I am not re-reading all of these posts again to find out.

Short answer - my plan for training is to space it out over the next 12 months or so doing dives, taking a class, doing more dives. If hope to get to 50 dives or so by late next year at which point I may then actually be advanced and turn in my cards for the cert. For Mexico in August I may have done Nav but I will not have any additional certs and the dives will reflect that. Kauai in November I may have Nitrox. The rest of my diving will be local. I am fortunate to live in NJ where we can dive in some quite varying conditions from a cold deep and murky quarry (arguably confined water but I don’t think at 60’ in 5’ vis and 50 deg) to inlets with tides, currents, and boat traffic to off shore wrecks. I hope to mix it up and hit them all over the next year subject to my abilities and training and to challenge my training so I can truly be advanced.
AOW – no thanks, advanced diver – yes. Anybody want to sponsor a diver on a budget with a class or two?

 

[ev780]

Admittedly I only skimmed 100 or so posts and there is plenty of information. I come from a place that all training is good. Part of the DNA of healthcare professionals is lifelong education and training. IMHO AOW and equivalents are fair classes on their own but to me the value was as a stepping stone to Rescue! (and equivalents) AOW in and of itself had little value other than having an instructor look over your skills. But Rescue to me is the first time that diving was secondary to what you are trying to accomplish. Helps put the actual diving skills into the subconscious as your brain focuses on the task loading. Kind of a sentinel moment in my diving development.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

So far the biggest thing for me was when I did the deep dive and realized it was no different than if I was at 60 feet.

Of course it's different ... you'll go through your air faster and reach your no-deco limit quicker at 100 feet than you will at 60 feet. And if you find yourself in a circumstance where you really want or need to get to the surface, it'll take you longer to get there.

What you meant to say is it doesn't *feel* any different ... and that's what gets a lot of new divers in trouble when they start diving deeper ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[KDAD]

I come from a place that all training is good. Part of the DNA of healthcare professionals is lifelong education and training. IMHO AOW and equivalents are fair classes on their own but to me the value was as a stepping stone to Rescue! (and equivalents) AOW in and of itself had little value other than having an instructor look over your skills. But Rescue to me is the first time that diving was secondary to what you are trying to accomplish. Helps put the actual diving skills into the subconscious as your brain focuses on the task loading. Kind of a sentinel moment in my diving development.

Sorry if repeating any already posted information.

SDI has a dual path to Rescue. One is the Advanced Adventure (AOW equivalent) which only gives an introduction to five of the specialties. The other is Advanced Diver. Different training regimens. Advanced Diver you spend more time and do more dives in each of the specialties and get certified in each of them. I think that path provides a real foundation to Rescue as opposed to either of the AOW equivalents.

If anyone has taken Advanced Diver is it that much more involved than Advanced Adventure and does a provide a real foundation for future training (and diving)?

---------- Post added July 7th, 2015 at 12:31 PM ----------

Of course it's different ... you'll go through your air faster and reach your no-deco limit quicker at 100 feet than you will at 60 feet. And if you find yourself in a circumstance where you really want or need to get to the surface, it'll take you longer to get there.

What you meant to say is it doesn't *feel* any different ... and that's what gets a lot of new divers in trouble when they start diving deeper ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Thanks, Bob.

That's kind of the point of my posts. Did the OP learn a little about deep diving and then go to 100 ft. and tool around or did he learn about NDLs, narcosis, planning air consumption for a deep dive and sticking to the plan, dealing with emergencies at depth, etc. On my deep dives I don't care if I see a single fish or a reef. I want to learn about diving deep. There will be other deep dives to see what down there.

 

[tursiops]

Did the OP learn a little about deep diving and then go to 100 ft. and tool around or did he learn about NDLs, narcosis, planning air consumption for a deep dive and sticking to the plan, dealing with emergencies at depth, etc. On my deep dives I don't care if I see a single fish or a reef. I want to learn about diving deep. There will be other deep dives to see what down there.

When you take your deep-dive specialty, do you expect to be able to learn everything on the first dive? No? then why do you expect the single AOW deep dive to teach you everything?
Do you realize that the SDI Deep Specialty only has TWO dives (PADI has 4)? Are you hoping to learn everything about deep diving in two dives? Here are the SDI standards for those two dives; is everything you hope to get there? No.
It appears that you are underplaying the value of one deep training dive (PADI AOW), and greatly overplaying the value of two deep training dives (SDI).
SDI Deep Open Water Dive 1
a. Test and check all equipment, i.e. depth gauges, bottom timers/watches and computers
b. Familiarization with area
c. Descend to planed depth and do not exceed any pre-planned limits
d. Dive according to plan at a depth limited to 30 metres / 100 feet for first dive
e. Ascend to safety stop
SDI Deep Open Water Dive 2
a. Monitor depth/time/air consumption, figure all times on slate
b. Descend to planed depth and do not exceed any pre-planned limits
c. Execute a simulated emergency that is to be assigned underwater by the instructor
d. Dive according to plan at a depth limited to 40 metres / 130 feet
e. Ascend to safety stop

 

[KDAD]

Sorry, didn't mean to take this into a SDI v. PADI. Only point out SDI as their standards are what I am most familiar with.

You can get an SDI OW equivalent with only one deep dive to 100 ft. I was trying to point out that, at least for me, I would want to maximize my learning and do the full specialties. I would expect my instructor and the course materials to go above and beyond what any agency's minimum requirements are.

My specific point about doing one deep dive to get an AOW, especially while on vacation in relatively easy diving situations where instructors may only cover the bare minimum (see your SDI requirements) is that the student may come away short changed and believe that they are actually an advanced diver and then go do advanced dives.

Problem is that I can go on vacation, do four or five dives in the different specialties in easy water, and get an AOW cert, and come back to the NE and jump on a wreck trip. Am I qualified for that?

When I do each of the specialties, my instructor will be the one who I feel knows that particular specialty best and may not be the same for each, or even from the same agency.

 

[lb7047]

When you take your deep-dive specialty, do you expect to be able to learn everything on the first dive? No? then why do you expect the single AOW deep dive to teach you everything?
Do you realize that the SDI Deep Specialty only has TWO dives (PADI has 4)? Are you hoping to learn everything about deep diving in two dives? Here are the SDI standards for those two dives; is everything you hope to get there? No.
It appears that you are underplaying the value of one deep training dive (PADI AOW), and greatly overplaying the value of two deep training dives (SDI).
SDI Deep Open Water Dive 1
a. Test and check all equipment, i.e. depth gauges, bottom timers/watches and computers
b. Familiarization with area
c. Descend to planed depth and do not exceed any pre-planned limits
d. Dive according to plan at a depth limited to 30 metres / 100 feet for first dive
e. Ascend to safety stop
SDI Deep Open Water Dive 2
a. Monitor depth/time/air consumption, figure all times on slate
b. Descend to planed depth and do not exceed any pre-planned limits
c. Execute a simulated emergency that is to be assigned underwater by the instructor
d. Dive according to plan at a depth limited to 40 metres / 130 feet
e. Ascend to safety stop

Do you teach SDI and PADI? If you do which do you feel has the better standards and the flexibility that's best for the student, ignoring PADI'S marketing machine. And does both give you the flexibility to teach air sharing the way it was intended to be taught. Handing off the primary


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