Bad service and safety in Indonesia...

[MXGratefulDiver]

... so ... 60 seconds on Google should tell me everything I need to know about every dive site in Komodo.

Got it Andy ... I guess I'll just never be as smart and competent as you are.

Got that too. I understand ... but I guess I just have to work within my limitations ... because after nearly 3,000 dives I still recognize that a good dive guide can make a difference between having an enjoyable dive and having a harrowing, if not life-threatening experience.

And projecting that back to what I was like at 70 or 100 dives ... I would not want to dive that region without someone competent and knowledgeable with local conditions.

By the way ... did that 60-second search tell you about ALL the dive sites in Komodo? They're not all the same, you know.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[DevonDiver]

... so ... 60 seconds on Google should tell me everything I need to know about every dive site in Komodo.

Got it Andy ... I guess I'll just never be as smart and competent as you are.

There's no need to be sarcastic Bob.

I didn't say "everything". An appreciation of the dangers in the area.

But, yes... one of those links does give information about all of the main sites - including recommendations on experience levels and warnings of strong currents etc.

Got that too. I understand ... but I guess I just have to work within my limitations ... because after nearly 3,000 dives I still recognize that a good dive guide can make a difference between having an enjoyable dive and having a harrowing, if not life-threatening experience.

I'm not sure why you are making this about you?

I'm still talking about the people mentioned in the original report... and scuba divers in general.

Neither am I disagreeing with you. I'm just adding my perspective and sharing my approach to diving in a new area.

Neither am I advocating not diving with a DM. Or that DMs aren't valuable (I spelled that out didn't I?). Just what divers can do in addition and in preparation​ of that...

Chill out man.... this isn't meant to be an argument.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Chill out man....

That's what I've been trying to tell you to do ... I get where you're coming from, but you've been laying blame pretty thick on the OP, and I don't think that's warranted. I disagree that you should be judging a recreational-level vacation diver by the standards of a tech instructor, which is what I read in your comments.

Having dived these sites, I would definitely not want to be there with a substandard dive operation ... and although I get what you're saying, I think it rather misses the point ... and in the process, pushed the train right off the tracks.

Whatever the shortcomings of the OP, I think knowing that operations like this one are in the area is useful information for anyone considering diving there ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[DevonDiver]

That's what I've been trying to tell you to do ...

I am

I guess that doesn't come across via the forum sometimes.

I get where you're coming from, but you've been laying blame pretty thick on the OP, and I don't think that's warranted.

Well, that is a personal opinion. Bear in mind that the author of the report (who isn't the thread OP, that shared the report) posted/copied their 'assassination' onto nearly 40 different forums and pages across the web....

So, yes... in this instance...and this instance particularly... I do want to redress the balance a little. I don't know the author...and I don't know the dive operator... but I do know there are two sides to every story. I also know that there are lots of recreational divers out there who are completely irresponsible in their approach to diving.... and that many of the criticism that those people make are as much (or more) their fault, as they are a dive centres.

I disagree that you should be judging a recreational-level vacation diver by the standards of a tech instructor, which is what I read in your comments.

I have been trying to stress that my comments aren't reflective of any qualification I hold. I've always done my research before diving. That probably stems more from my natural mindset and the particular branch of service I worked with in the military.

Before I go anywhere (diving or not), I spend some time online, in the library, in bookshops... making sure I know as much about the place/activity/culture etc as I can. I do that for safety and enjoyment...and to make sure I get the most out of a trip. It's not specific for diving, nor reflective of any qualification I hold. I attempted to translate that approach into diving context for the benefit of this thread, because it is potentially good advice to anyone who reads this.

As mentioned earlier... Google has a lot of good information. This thread is part of that now... it's on page 1 if you Google Komodo diving/dangers/hazards etc. I wasn't trying to win a debate/argument... I was trying to put some beneficial advice into the public domain.

 

[ScubaVideo]

Both the Divers and Dive OP Failed to Act Properly

From my perspective, both the dive op and the divers failed in their respective obligations. The dive op provided an inexperienced Dive Master/guide to an advanced dive area. They had discussions with these divers and knew the expectations and lack of experience in diving in general and that they had no experience in the location. If it was beyond their level, the dive op should have told them so instead of just taking the money. The briefing consisted of nothing but there are "fishes" and the DM had to ask the non-diving Capt about the sites.

For the divers, they should have been responsible for their equipment. Checking it out at the dive op and then tagging it in some way (put in a dive bag with a name tag). They should have been aware that the chosen location was beyond their abilities - but as many new divers believe, they were ready as long as they had an experienced DM - not so much! They should have aborted the dive(s) and insisted on returning to shore. They had equipment failure, currents beyond their abilities and improper support on the boat.

I'm leaning towards the dive op as failing the most, but as I said both were at fault.

A proper dive brief by a Dive Master is very valuable and in my opinion, expected when I'm paying for that on a vacation.

 

[boulderjohn]

I used to say to the teachers who worked in my program that it is our job to teach the students we have, not the ones we wish we had. The students we had came to us with a myriad of flaws, and it was our job as professionals to diagnose those flaws and do whatever we could within our power to make them successful learners. It was not easy. Another school in our district, in contrast, took great pride in its high test scores, but those of us the with the background knowledge knew that the students who were exiting that school with those high scores came into that school with even higher scores. The school was taking pride in not doing a totally terrible job with the high quality students they were given.

Similarly, resort area dive operators have to deal with the divers they have, not the ones they wish they had. Any divemaster can look good with a bunch of self-sufficient, expert divers. Vacation divers come in a wide variety of skill levels. Until they are much more experienced, there are sites that are simply not appropriate for them. The problem is, they won't understand what those sites are until they get that missing experience. I know someone, for example, who went to the Galapagos, confident that he could handle the currents that he knew he would meet there. He couldn't, and he did not have a good time as he struggled against them. Not having experienced anything like it before, he had no way to calculate his ability to manage them. Divers who go to Cozumel frequently and think those are as strong as currents get will not be deterred by a warning that a site has bad currents.

Although I believe that the steps Andy mentions are valuable and form part of the first chapter of the dive planning specialty course I created, I don't believe you will find that level of foresight in a high percentage of divers. I put that information in that specialty class because it is not a part of normal dive preparation, not because they already know it. Absolving the dive operator of blame in this case is like school teachers shrugging off abysmal test scores by saying they could do better if they had better students. That is an attitude that allows you to give yourself permission to do a continued poor job.

I believe that the dive operator bears most of the blame for this incident, and I would be reluctant to send divers to a dive operation anywhere in the world that feels otherwise.

 

[Centrals]

I believe this is not one off case.
I read from "Bad weekend in Indonesia" that DS will take divers to site that is not suitable to their level of experience/skill.
There are unscrupulous operators and you seldom find them on Google/Yahoo search.

 

[sizzer33]

There are lots of places in your so called third world country that provides excellent diving experience. I personally dived in Indonesia and they too can provide as good as service as in "1st world countries".

 

[DevonDiver]

I believe this is not one off case.
I read from "Bad weekend in Indonesia" that DS will take divers to site that is not suitable to their level of experience/skill.
There are unscrupulous operators and you seldom find them on Google/Yahoo search.

Who knows their level of experience/skill? The diver.

Who knows their comfort zone? The diver.

Who knows the value and relevance of their previous experience? The diver.

Yes... a dive operator should guide and counsel their customers on the appropriateness of the sites - but ultimately, it should be the diver who makes that decision.

Skim through the posts here on Scubaboard and you'll see lots of negative reactions to instances where divers have been restricted from dive sites by operators. Most often, those restrictions are based on certification level and/or logged dives. It's valid, but it causes resentment. I've seen more than a few dive operators getting brow beaten by disgruntled customers for this very reason.

Who knows... maybe the divers concerned over-exaggerated their experience? I've seen that happen for real on multiple occasions. Of course.. that wouldn't have been mentioned in their report...

[just playing Devil's Advocate - because we really don't know the full story behind that report, and shouldn't make assumptions from hearing one side of the story​]

 

[boulderjohn]

Who knows their level of experience/skill? The diver.

Who knows their comfort zone? The diver.

Who knows the value and relevance of their previous experience? The diver.

I don't really agree, and here is another one of my far-flung analogies as an example.

Many years ago I found myself the faculty sponsor of the school chess club. One afternoon a new student came and asked if he could join the club. He brought a friend with him, a friend who served primarily as his cheerleader. The president of the club cordially invited him to play a game, and the cheerleader exclaimed, "Yeah, he will! And he'll beat you too! He's never lost a game in his life!" Well, I had to watch this wunderkind. He played the white pieces, and he opened by pushing his king rook pawn out two spaces. The club president looked up at me with a wry smile. For those of you who don't know, it is hard to imagine a worse first move--it was the sign of a beginner.

After he lost the game, the newcomer and his cheerleader were in stunned disbelief. He had never lost a game because he had never played anyone who was not a total beginner. He thought he was a great player ready to take on the chess world.

You really don't know how good you are until you have seen something that gives you a better idea of your ability. I thought I was a pretty darn good diver at one point. Then I took my first technical diving class without ever having even seen a technical diver. In that class I think I felt much like that supposed chess prodigy must have felt when he suffered that first defeat. When I got my full cave certification I was miles ahead of where I had been back when I thought I was good, but seeing really great cave divers in their world has shown me that I still have far to go. I am several times the diver I was a few years ago, but I have, ironically, a lower sense of my worth because I have had a glimpse of what it means to be truly great.

Just as the president of the chess club looked up at me with that wry smile, a professional dive operator must be aware of the signs of a diver's true ability before sending them off without real supervision on a truly expert dive.