PADI tables finally going away?

[The Chairman]

Netdoc,

It seems you are very quick to tell everyone that they should use computers, which is fine. I use a computer too. I'm not a luddite, and I understand their uses. Why does it seem like you think divers should not be taught to use tables? It cannot hurt for divers to know them. Is this part of dumbing diving down further, or does this change your bottom line somehow at all? Does this sell more computers? I am just curious what part your own personal interests play in this. Tons of malleable divers (fortunately or otherwise) listen to what you say because you run this board. So, why are you telling divers that they shouldn't learn how to use dives tables?

You are making me repeat myself. Read the section about why I don't think physics students need to learn how to use slide rules in order to do physics. It was a great tool in it's day but thank God for pocket calculators.

 

[Slonda828]

See, you didn't answer my question. Maybe I should rephrase it. What do you recommend a diver should do when his or her computer either fails or is not with them on a dive boat that they paid good money to board?

They call what you just did false attribution. See, I took philosophy in college too.

 

[GrimSleeper]

You are making me repeat myself. Read the section about why I don't think physics students need to learn how to use slide rules in order to do physics. It was a great tool in it's day but thank God for pocket calculators.

And I suggested then that you were making a false analogy, but you only seem to want to engage when you can find some sort of grounds for accusing people of Ludditism if they believe there is value in teaching tables.

I, too, have dived with a computer since roundabout dive 20. I own far too many dive computers. I have no objection to computers (well, slightly more objection to them since I got massively bent while clearing two different ones, but that's by the bye...) and think they are a useful diving tool. I just also happen to think there's a value to teaching the tables and THEN showing OW students how to use computers. I don't really understand why you're so aggressive in your dismissal of that, especially since your only reason for your stance is apparently that everyone who doesn't agree with you is a technophobe.

Grae

 

[The Chairman]

And I suggested then that you were making a false analogy, but you only seem to want to engage when you can find some sort of grounds for accusing people of Ludditism if they believe there is value in teaching tables.

I have yet to see a substantive reason for teaching tables rather than PDCs. The ones that I have seen border on the irrational. No one has shown that it's any easier or more complete to teach deco theory via tables. It's not my fault that your arguments are not well thought out.

I don't really understand why you're so aggressive in your dismissal of that

It's a colossal waste of time for most students and it stops people from learning how to dive. I have met a number of prospective students who were hesitant because of the specter of having to learn and master tables. I look for ways to GROW the popularity of Scuba Diving just as I do for Fly Fishing. I want to make the sport as appealing as possible.

especially since your only reason for your stance is apparently that everyone who doesn't agree with you is a technophobe.

I don't believe I have ever stated this in this thread. Poisoning the well is a dramatic debate technique but ultimately flawed when closely inspected.

 

[Slonda828]

Netdoc,

You still have not answered my question that I repeated in post #202. Furthermore, your argument that students lack of ability to learn dive tables precludes them from diving is weak. I have assisted classes with genuinely learning disabled divers in them (they approached us before hand about their needs), and they still learned dive tables. You are saying that tables keep divers from diving? Do you have any evidence to support this? Is there any data available on how many people do not understand their dive computers?

Someone is going to figure out that you sold them short when their computer battery dies or they leave their dive computer in their car. The divemaster is going to say "No big deal, just use your tables." Then they are going to have to explain that their dive instructor did not show them how. Then a guy like me is going to try his best to show them. Getting divers in the water is promoting diving, not making it some perceived version of easier.

You keep saying teaching computer or tables. Why not teach both? We do.

 

[The Chairman]

See, you didn't answer my question.

Sorry, I only answered HALF of your questions. I will make no money because of my stand on PDCs. But it sounds that you are going to paint me with some sort of nefarious motive.

Now answer my questions please.

 

[Elonna]

I have yet to see a substantive reason for teaching tables rather than PDCs.

This is semantics...I haven't seen anyone really argue against teaching PDCs, therefore they are not arguing to teach tables rather than PDCs. They are disagreeing with you saying tables shouldn't be taught at all, not that PDCs should't also be included.

 

[The Chairman]

Furthermore, your argument that students lack of ability to learn dive tables precludes them from diving is weak.

Sorry, I have to cut out to take my son to the doctor... but your premise here is false. I never cited their "lack of ability", but rather their "lack of desire". That's a huge difference.

 

[The Chairman]

This is semantics...I haven't seen anyone really argue against teaching PDCs,

yet only ONE person feels that they were taught in his OW class. They might not argue against it outright, but it doesn't appear to be happening with any appreciable frequency. Talk about semantics.

 

[Slonda828]

Do you disagree with the premise that we are the largest or that we have given people what they wanted when they wanted it? Or are you just leveling a pot shot at me because you can't dispute the facts?

I'm not sure. Deco stop is large, the dive matrix is large, I do not have access to data that would confirm or deny that you are or are not the largest internet diving site. I am not taking a pot shot at you because I cannot dispute the facts. Here are the facts, correct me if I am wrong:

-You recommend not training dive tables.
-You recommend training dive computers.

Here is my question that you still have not answered:

-What does a diver, trained by YOU to only use a dive computer do when he finds himself without one on a dive boat?

Heck, I'll leave that open to anyone at all. If you do not know how to use dive tables, and you break, lose, or otherwise cannot use your dive computer, what do you do on a dive boat? You sit there. Do you think anyone else (besides maybe your buddy) is going to miss their dives that they paid 125 dollars or more for because you do not know how to use a simple set of dive tables? I think that a diving instructor should adequately prepare you to dive within your skills and experience. Telling someone "Hey, dive unless your computer isn't around" is not an answer for me. Telling someone "Hey, dive if you can afford a computer on top of the minimum thousand dollar investment you just made in a sport that you are not even sure that you like yet" is also not an answer. The divers that I supervise and assist in training will continue to know how to use both. I will continue to do that while we charge the same price for instruction that everyone else does, because we owe it to them.