PADI tables finally going away?

[DA Aquamaster]

You say this like mechanical SPGs don't do this on a regular basis. Are you telling us that you now dive multiple SPGs to avoid this scenario?

They don't. I've been diving 25 years with some where around 2000 dives and the only SPG failures I have experienced have been either electronic SPG failures (1) or air integrated computer SPG failures (2). I recently sent in a 5 year old SPG that shows about 150 psi when disconnected but that has more to do with being picky in a cave environment, since I seldom end a dive with less than thirds remaining (1200 psi.)

Plus, if the diver has good situational awareness they will be looking at the SPG to confirm their estimate of how much gas they have left, not to become aware of how much gas they have left. If the needle is stuck or reads zero, the diver is still going to know approximately how much gas they have left and will still be able to abort the dive and surface normally.

So no, even if old school brass and glass SPG's did fail frequently, there is still no need for a back up SPG. But again that presumes the diver understands the underlying variables of SAC rate, gas consumption, increased atmosphers at depth, etc and I am sure you agree students need to understand that even if they have an SPG telling them how much gas they have left.

Why exactly is a computer magically different in that regard, especially when they are less reliable with 1% to 3% failure rates being fairly normal in the industry?

 

[DevonDiver]

What's next...strapping a spare set of fins to your tank...just in case?

 

[Steve50]

What's next...strapping a spare set of fins to your tank...just in case?

doesn't everyone?

 

[BDSC]

most of us rarely see these tables being trotted out before a dive..... how often do you really see tables?

I've seen them exactly one time in the last 4 or 5 years or so and that wasn't by a rec diver but by a lady DM at Scuba Club Cozumel. When I asked her why she was looking at her tables she told me unless she kept up the practice of using them, she'd forget how because she dove with a computer. She wanted to eventually become an instructor so that's why she was keeping her skills sharp with the tables.

I started diving in 1991 and besides the usual mask, fins, and snorkel, the very first piece of equipment I bought was one of the original Sherwood Source computers. I think they had just come out with them and I still remember how my instructor told me that eventually, pretty much everyone would have one (a dive computer) and some day he could see how they would replace the use of the tables for rec diving. So when he showed me what even that early computer could do and knowing I wouldn't have to pull out the tables, I got it.

To this day, I have never used the tables beyond what I used them for in my OW class. No doubt I'd have to find my old ow book and read up on it again. And to me, there is one of the problems with tables....having to remember how to use them. I usually take about 3 dive trips a year and try and space them out and will do a dive now and then off the coast here in NC. But let's say I'm going on a week long trip to Cozumel, Little Cayman, etc. I don't have to remember how to use the computer. I turn it on and everything I need is right there on the screen. It really is as easy as turning it on, jumping in, and off you go. It's nice not having to remember what I had calculated from a dive table before the dive.

I personally don't know of a single rec diver who uses tables. We had a group of 22 folks go to Little Cayman this past May and we were on two boats along with others. Every single person from our group as well as all the others had computers and I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that except for one instructor with us, at best maybe one or two folks would be able to use a table....maybe.

And as far as not being able to afford one, you can get a decent basic computer and pressure gauge for right at $200.

I think if I were an instructor, I'd want the option of teaching them or not. I think the vast majority of new divers would benefit far greater by having an instructor take a few hours and show them a couple of computer options (like AI vs basic) and how they work rather than go through tables that most likely, they'll never use past the class.

 

[Elonna]

I really don't understand the issue here. It seems that NetDoc is saying his main issue is that PDCs aren't being taught in OW. OK, I think most people have agreed that PDCs deserve some coverage in the class. But do most instructors really have an issue with spending 30 minutes on tables? We wouldn't have spent that much time on it, except we did have one student who had trouble figuring multiple dives and finding SIs.

And if it would become ok to NOT teach tables in OW, then the sport becomes more elitist since not everyone can afford to buy computers.

Sure, the school might provide one for your use for class...then what? OK, you're going on a boat dive lead by a DM...don't need to know anything about tables nor computers anyway, no big deal. Your buddy wants to go diving at the local lake or quarry...you don't own a computer (MAYBE you can rent one)...you don't know how to plan a dive using a table...you can, I suppose, rely on your buddy to figure the dive plan if they know how to use tables, but you can't double check their computations. Oh wait, your buddy took the same class as you so doesn't know how to plan a dive from a table either. Maybe your buddy has a computer...do you both dive from your buddy's computer?

I want a computer...I'm so NOT a technophobe. I just can't afford one right now...so that means I shouldn't dive?

And how would someone in OW know to ask to learn tables anyway? I didn't know what a dive table was before I read the book/took the class.

I don't think tables should be excluded/optional, but I do think PDCs should be included...this is the 21st century afterall.

 

[The Chairman]

They don't. I've been diving 25 years with some where around 2000 dives and the only SPG failures I have experienced have been either electronic SPG failures (1) or air integrated computer SPG failures (2).

Your experience albeit a bit shorter is the exact opposite of mine. I have seen many dives called because of a faulty mechanical SPG. In fact, I have two faulty ones needing to be replaced now.

Plus, if the diver has good situational awareness

Then it doesn't really matter if they are diving with an electronic or mechanical SPG or if they are utilizing a watch and depth guage or a computer. NOTHING can cure stupid, crazy or distracted.

Why exactly is a computer magically different in that regard, especially when they are less reliable with 1% to 3% failure rates being fairly normal in the industry?

Haven't you been paying attention? It's because MORE people use PDCs while diving. It really doesn't matter why you hate them when others love them. The record store owners may hate Michael Jackson's music, but you can bet they were fully stocked after his demise. How do you think ScubaBoard got to be the largest forum for Scuba? We gave people what they wanted, when they wanted it.

Much has been said in other threads about how bad the diving industry is doing as a whole. We simply aren't offering people what they want, when they want it. If something is not NEEDED for safe diving and the majority of divers don't use that skill, then why continue to teach it?

 

[Slonda828]

How do you think ScubaBoard got to be the largest forum for Scuba? We gave people what they wanted, when they wanted it.

Congratulations. That puts you in the same category as P.T. Barnum. Never one to toot your own horn, eh?

 

[The Chairman]

Wait. Make up your mind here:

I agree that knowing film makes for a better digital photographer sooner.

But the learning curve for a photographer is much shorter now as they can get immediate feedback

They both can't be quicker. I know you want to prove your point that manual is better but please keep your story straight.

And exposures with a digital are much like a print film

I unequivocably disagree here. We worried about ASA because we worried about grain, depth of field, about color saturation and about freezing the picture. The higher the ASA the courser the grain. The longer the exposure, the courser the grain.

Today's cameras have far different issues and while we might translate those issues into F-Stop, shutter speed and ASA, those are not the best way to learn. More than one pro has told me how they had to re-learn the craft when they switched to digital.

The irony here is that the opposite is true for dive tables.

Again, our experience differs completely. But hey, I am an early adopter and glom on to new technology pretty quickly.

 

[Slonda828]

Netdoc,

It seems you are very quick to tell everyone that they should use computers, which is fine. I use a computer too. I'm not a luddite, and I understand their uses. Why does it seem like you think divers should not be taught to use tables? It cannot hurt for divers to know them. Is this part of dumbing diving down further, or does this change your bottom line somehow at all? Does this sell more computers? I am just curious what part your own personal interests play in this. Tons of malleable divers (fortunately or otherwise) listen to what you say because you run this board. So, why are you telling divers that they shouldn't learn how to use dives tables?

 

[The Chairman]

Congratualations. That puts you in the same category at P.T. Barnum. Never one to toot your own horn, eh?

Boy this feels like an ad hominem, but I will address it anyway. Far from tooting my own horn, I just gave you the secret to our success. Do you disagree with the premise that we are the largest or that we have given people what they wanted when they wanted it? Or are you just leveling a pot shot at me because you can't dispute the facts?