PADI tables finally going away?

[GrandpaScuba]

...Nobody I know understands how to fully use their computer (including me) and, lacking such expertise, somehow feel like they can just trust the display (which they probably don't understand either). Further, unless it is the LiquiVision X1, the things are just too hard to read.

I'm a computer engineer with about 35 years of software/hardware engineering. I also have 29 years of diving experience, and I have problems with most dive computers. The interfaces are awful.

My current computer is the Galileo Sol, I have to say that it's the best I've seen so far. But, not everyone has 2 grand to spend on a dive computer. While the UWATEC folks like to brag about many of it's technical features. The most important new features with this DC are 2 features that I've been pining for, for many years: A dot-matrix screen, so you don't have to decipher tiny silk-screened icons that usually don't look like what they are supposed to be, and user-upgradable firmware.

Most dive computers have LCD screens where various icons, representing alerts and so on, are pre-printed in specific places on the screen. These icons are like dash-lights that the computer "lights up" when the event the icon represents has occured. So they have to determine everything the computer is ever going to "say" and pre-print the design on the LCD substrate. These computers will never be able to display anything that wasn't predetermined when the LCD display was designed.

By changing to a dot-matrix display, you now can display any message you want, any where on the screen you want, in plain English (or French, or Spanish, or...). I hope more DC makers migrate to this concept and incorporate it into models that are priced for the smaller budget diver.

 

[The Chairman]

when people use the tables

That's the point Jim. most of us rarely see these tables being trotted out before a dive. Other than those YOU have trained, how often do you really see tables? How safe are they when they have given up trying to remember how to use them and just assume they won't get bent?

But how many, and yes myself included at times, will dive a computer right up until the yellow just pushing the red. [/quotes] Kudos to them! They (and you) are AT LEAST paying attention. My biggest priority with my students is building their situational awareness during a dive. Check your Max bottom time against the suggested depth before you splash. Now add ten feet and recheck it. Check your SPG often. Check your computer at the same time. How deep are you? How does that compare with your gas supply? What is your current NDL at that depth? What's your buddy's gas supply like?

It is my belief that most problems come from human inattention. ABS brakes are superior to traditional brakes ONLY IF your foot hits the pedal in a timely fashion. It makes no sense to me to beat my head against the wall and teach people something that they will take pains to never use. I would rather make better use of my time.

 

[pollywogg]

I am still a very new diver. I was trained not to use computers. In my training, we were table-dependent only. I plan every dive on my tables. I understand the argument that for single tank recreational dives, the tables are not absolutely necessary, because the gas available is more of a limiting factor than NDT, but I like to be in the habit of planning EVERY dive.
That being said, I do own a computer, a bare-bones Aeris xr1. It is very easy to use/read. I use my computer, but it is almost more of a backup to my tables than anything. I know what my plan is. If something happens and changes the plan, I have some depths and times on my slate to replan on the fly. My comp just logs my dives...it also logs temp....which is nice....
Being a new diver, I think the lack of knowledge about tables is scary. I have a problem with being dependent on a computer with no knowledge of how it works. In my opinion SCUBA is still too new, and Dive Science still so young, that to turn it over to a comp completely, with no real knowledge of times/tables, is undermining the possible dangers of SCUBA. I have no problem whatsoever with computer use, but I feel that there should be a backup plan in case of computer failure.

 

[The Chairman]

I was trained not to use computers.

I am not surprised that this ultimately led up to a mild form of technophobia...

I think the lack of knowledge about tables is scary.

Not to belabor the point, but where do you think those tables came from? You can probably be assured that a computer somewhere generated them from algorithms. So, in essence you are still relying on a computer. Now how about this "new science" bit? Do you think that tables are any more of a SWAG then the algorithms employed by your PDC? The same science that drives the tables that also drives your Aeris PDC. You might be under some illusion that you are somehow safer, but that's all it is. Tables and PDCs have the very same limitation: they aren't measuring your N₂ levels at all. Based on the current research and assumptions at the time they were created, they are both Scientific Wild Arse Guessing at how much N₂ is dissolved in your body. Hopefully this limitation was covered in your class.

Hey, whether you continue to be afraid of using the computer as a primary tool for diving, I hope all of your diving is safe and happy!

 

[Kingpatzer]

Ultimately, for me it comes down to this: I've experienced a computer breaking. I've experienced leaving a computer at home. I've experienced having a dive buddy without a computer. I've seen someone lose a computer under-water. I know divers with poor vision who can not use most computers as they can't see them well. I know one diver who doesn't have arms.

Knowing tables allow dives to continue in all of those situations. If nothing else, that knowledge is part of a save-a-dive kit.

Beyond that, teaching computers is very much an age-dependent thing. There are still active older folks out there picking up this sport, and I'll be honest, my mother can't figure out a cell phone, she sure as heck isn't going to figure out a dive computer. And she's a research biologist, so it's not like she's just stupid.

 

[Puffer Fish]

As a diver that looks at Catfishbob as a newbie...in the days when there were only tables...almost every diver I knew pushed them as far, sometimes farther than they should have...that still exists today in some areas of the country. I would be willing to bet that I have had more dive computers break than most people have owned, and I have not lost many dives due to it or stopped using them (they are much better today though) There would seem to be a couple of very valid reasons to teach tables...

1. The person cannot afford the computer... excellent reason that should be respected.

2. The certifying agency requires it. It may be silly, but rules are rules...

3. One likes doing things the old school way... double hose.. round mask...nice hobby and tables should be part of the fun.

Pretty much all the other reasons are being technophobic. If you cannot see (I am old and have terrible eyes).. then you will not be able to see a watch and depth gauge.

Things can break.. like a computer.. like a watch.. like a depth gauge....I've had more watches leak underwater over the years than computers. We have a plan for any of those.

You might leave it home? Well you might leave the tables home... you might forget to get up in the morning... you might forget to put gas in the car...not remembering to do something is an excellent reason to actually use a computer...saves forgetting important stuff underwater.

The training with a computer does not give you the feel of working the tables. Ok, there is something to that... but that is more to do with not having the right training tools to show how and way the computer shows what it does.... and think abacus... you get to feel the numbers.

 

[The Chairman]

Remember when digital photography hit our sport? The old school (Nikonos) guys told us that it was not "real" photography, whatever that means. They also were horrified about cameras and strobes misfiring, photographers losing their passion, photographers losing their feel for the medium and the list could go on. What it DID do was to put almost every professional underwater photographer out of a job or business. The learning curve for producing outstanding underwater digital photography was cut to just a small fraction of that needed for film. Dark rooms gave way to learning digital manipulation on a Mac. Forums became the de facto method for learning a lot of these techniques. It was a true revolution in how we took underwater pictures.

 

[Slonda828]

Remember when digital photography hit our sport? The old school (Nikonos) guys told us that it was not "real" photography, whatever that means. They also were horrified about cameras and strobes misfiring, photographers losing their passion, photographers losing their feel for the medium and the list could go on. What it DID do was to put almost every professional underwater photographer out of a job or business. The learning curve for producing outstanding underwater digital photography was cut to just a small fraction of that needed for film. Dark rooms gave way to learning digital manipulation on a Mac. Forums became the de facto method for learning a lot of these techniques. It was a true revolution in how we took underwater pictures.

Here's the difference:

Me: hey, my digital camera broke.
Buddy: oh well, let's go dive.

Me: hey, my computer broke, or I lost it, or I left it in the car, or I dropped a tank on it. I do not know how to use tables, and we are on a dive boat.
Buddy: It looks like you are not diving then, huh? Say, can I borrow your underwater camera, since you won't be needing it?

I've never seen a dive computer for rent on a dive boat, so unless you want to buy two of them, where's your backup plan if you are a wog diver? If you are saying that dive computers never break, I beg to differ. Also, by your logic, I shouldn't bring an extra regulator, or a save a dive kit, correct? I should just put blind faith in the idea that my gear will unfailingly serve me at all times. I'm just saying.

Besides, if you have even the most rudimentary math skills, most dive pros can teach you to use tables in about a half an hour. That's pretty cheap insurance when you are paying for your open water course anyway. For the record I use a dive computer on every non vintage dive I have done this year (which last time I looked was about 109 dives). Fail to plan, plan to fail.

 

[The Chairman]

For the record I use a dive computer on every non vintage dive I have done this year (which last time I looked was about 109 dives).

Did they teach how to use a PDC in your OW class?

 

[Elonna]

Being a newbie having just finished my OW and not a lot of budget to spend on a computer that 'does everything for you' right now, I need the tables. I've been looking at computers and the ones that might be in my budget sometime soon record depth and time only. I still have to manually figure SIs, etc. So, I either wait until I can afford a nicer computer or I buy the very basic model...either way...I need dive tables. So yes, I believe tables should be taught. I do agree though that the very basics of how to use a computer should be taught too. Some of them seem very confusing and heck, I'm a computer programmer lol.
Just a newbie's perspective.