OW Confined dive concerns/questions

[MauiScubaSteve]

Am I reading this right - 1 (one!) day for ALL theory and confined sessions?

Nearly every dive shop as well as most charter boats and independent shore instructors have to offer the 3-day cert; the market demands it. It's actually easier to do 3-day certs at many resorts, because the pool and dive site are within walking distance.

Proscriptive is the term I think; if the students have the correct answers on the knowledge review, move on. The students take turns reading each question and their answer. The first three chapters are pretty easy if you actually read the book; a 10 year old can do it.

The only real teaching required for most semi-intelligent people is how to do the tables. Some never get it, but you can miss every tables question on the exam and still have a passing score. You must review every missed answer but computers are the best advice for many divers. 3-6 students; KR's reviewed, quizzes taken, exam probably passed, all in 4-4.5 hours.

Gear up, load up, eat lunch while driving to the pool or confined water, hope to have skills done by 5 so clean up done by 6.

The other 2 days are easier;

Gear up, load up, drive to dive site, dive, eat lunch during SI, , dive, return to shop, clean gear. Retakes of exam could happen end of second day, PIC processing end of third day. 10 hours first day followed by two ~7 hour days; 24 hour course, we might be lucky if that's close to the industry standard (most probably aren't that long).

 

[Thalassamania]

Nearly every dive shop as well as most charter boats and independent shore instructors have to offer the 3-day cert; the market demands it. It's actually easier to do 3-day certs at many resorts, because the pool and dive site are within walking distance.

I think a more accurate description would be that one operation introduced an inadequate course and no one else had the guts to stand up and call it was it was, so now the "market demands it" because the consumer doesn't know any better and no one is taking the time to tell them for fear of being "uncompetitive."

Proscriptive is the term I think; if the students have the correct answers on the knowledge review, move on. The students take turns reading each question and their answer. The first three chapters are pretty easy if you actually read the book; a 10 year old can do it.

Proscriptive is just another buzz word ... what it really means is go get the book and teach yourself.

The only real teaching required for most semi-intelligent people is how to do the tables. Some never get it, but you can miss every tables question on the exam and still have a passing score. You must review every missed answer but computers are the best advice for many divers. 3-6 students; KR's reviewed, quizzes taken, exam probably passed, all in 4-4.5 hours.

You really belive that that only "real" teaching an entry level diver needs is the tables? You really believe that? You feel that that gas laws are all self explanitory? You think that gas management just happens of its own accord? Those are just two topics that don't teach themselves. Frankly I think that your statment is, in reality, indefensible.

Gear up, load up, eat lunch while driving to the pool or confined water, hope to have skills done by 5 so clean up done by 6.

Oh ... that's right, but the end of the pool sessions you will have done each required skill once, well ... you'll have done them all, more or less. But in PADI NEWSPEAK that known as mastery. Forget about the fact that the best research on the subject, done by the then Chair of the Deparment of Kenisiology at UCLA, found that a mimimum of 17 repetitions were required before you could have a 95% expectation that a moderay complex skill like air sharing would be executed effectively. Let's forget about that and go with the abject and dangerous stupidity of, "if you can do it once in the pool ... you can do it anywhere, anytime."

The other 2 days are easier;

Gear up, load up, drive to dive site, dive, eat lunch during SI, , dive, return to shop, clean gear. Retakes of exam could happen end of second day, PIC processing end of third day. 10 hours first day followed by two ~7 hour days; 24 hour course, we might be lucky if that's close to the industry standard (most probably aren't that long).

Followed by the vast majority of pople who get to this point being so ill prepared and so uncomfortable that they decide that they realy are comfortable enough to enjoy diving ... and so they go on to something else.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

I think a more accurate description would be that one operation introduced an inadequate course and no one else had the guts to stand up and call it was it was, so now the "market demands it" because the consumer doesn't know any better and no one is taking the time to tell them for fear of being "uncompetitive."

I think some dive shops and dive instructors tried telling prospective students, while trying to market a longer (more expensive) course that produced better divers, and the majority found out it was "seriously uncompetitive." If you can afford to become a tech instructor, good on ya!

Proscriptive is just another buzz word ... what it really means is go get the book and teach yourself.

What it really means is the book is really easy. If you actually watch the video/dvd and read the entire book, including side panels and doing quick quizzes, plus use the guide for the tables, most 10 year olds might even get the tables without instruction.

You really belive that that only "real" teaching an entry level diver needs is the tables? You really believe that? You feel that that gas laws are all self explanitory? You think that gas management just happens of its own accord? Those are just two topics that don't teach themselves. Frankly I think that your statment is, in reality, indefensible.

Gas Law, gas management; if we only let people dive that understand Gas Law and gas management it will be an even lonelier pastime than it already is. Air in lungs will expand on ascent - don't hold breath on ascent. The deeper you go the denser your breaths - air runs out quicker when you are deeper.

My employers were OK with me getting the students to pass the test in 4 hours from start. I'd piss them off on occasion by taking up to 5 hours. It's a 3-day course, what's to defend?

Oh ... that's right, but the end of the pool sessions you will have done each required skill once, well ... you'll have done them all, more or less. But in PADI NEWSPEAK that known as mastery. Forget about the fact that the best research on the subject, done by the then Chair of the Deparment of Kenisiology at UCLA, found that a mimimum of 17 repetitions were required before you could have a 95% expectation that a moderay complex skill like air sharing would be executed effectively. Let's forget about that and go with the abject and dangerous stupidity of, "if you can do it once in the pool ... you can do it anywhere, anytime."

Did you know that when I turned 16 a friend let me use his Honda 250 to get my motorcycle endorsement. A few weeks later another friend let me ride his souped up 750 Honda around downtown Denver and on I-25. I had no idea what I didn't know!

Followed by the vast majority of pople who get to this point being so ill prepared and so uncomfortable that they decide that they realy are comfortable enough to enjoy diving ... and so they go on to something else.

I get paid to do a job. From what I've seen most employers are annoyed when an instructor actually make the students perform to all Standards. The real instruction happens during all the interaction, including the diving portion of the dive; many of my fledglings still dive and stay in touch. Sometimes I feel like a double agent behind enemy lines, but one can only do so much with a 24 hour course.

 

[bamamedic]

...Gas Law, gas management; if we only let people dive that understand Gas Law and gas management it will be an even lonelier pastime than it already is. Air in lungs will expand on ascent - don't hold breath on ascent. The deeper you go the denser your breaths - air runs out quicker when you are deeper...

Please don't think I'm being pissy...I'm not an instructor, and I don't pretend to be; I'm just a novice diver trying to learn.

That just seems like it isn't much information concerning gas management...maybe I was just really fortunate to have an instructor who wasn't bound by an dive shop employer. We had about three classroom sessions and three pool sessions; we went over every single chapter, and he made darn sure and well that I understood the gas laws and how they related to diving.

While at the time, I didn't see the point of memorizing gas laws (I just wanted to go out and dive!), it really came in handy as I furthered my diving education.

 

[cooperscuba]

Did you know that when I turned 16 a friend let me use his Honda 250 to get my motorcycle endorsement. A few weeks later another friend let me ride his souped up 750 Honda around downtown Denver and on I-25. I had no idea what I didn't know!

And did you know in the UK they introduced a second motorcycle exam (for 1000+ccs I think) because lots of idiots passed their test on lower powered machines and then were injured or killed riding larger engines?

The real instruction happens during all the interaction, including the diving portion of the dive...

That`s nice. For me the vast majority of the instruction happens in the confined sessions, with "fine tuning" between the OW dives. All I want during OW dives is for my newbies to flawlessly demonstrate their new found skills (including buoyancy control, buddy contact, relaxed finning etc which they`ve honed in the pool) and to enjoy the sites. If my student can`t catch some sun and Zzzzzz`s during their SIs (skill briefings, with the exception of CESA, should be a 5 minute run down) they shouldn`t have been allowed to move on to the OW dives and their instructor must have let them down.

 

[daniel1948]

[...] The first three chapters are pretty easy if you actually read the book; a 10 year old can do it.

I found the book to be extremely easy, often simplistic, and the tables to be straightforward, and even fun (but I like numbers). The videos were a waste of time for me because I had already learned exactly the same information from the book.

The only real teaching required for most semi-intelligent people is how to do the tables.

I actually had no classroom time, other than going over the reviews with my instructor, and taking the tests. I read the book and watched the videos on my own. The only teaching I had was the hands-on work of setting up, breaking down, and cleaning the gear; explanations of the skills before going into the water; and demonstration of those same skills by the instructor in the water.

you can miss every tables question on the exam and still have a passing score. [...]

This is typical of standardized testing. In a similar vein, I passed my Extra-class ham radio exam without understanding the first thing about electronics, because I knew the rules & regs (about 1/3 of the test) and I was good at math (resonance problems, basically advanced algebra, were another 1/3 of the test) and by guessing at the electronics theory questions I could count on getting some right by chance (multiple choice -- had I been required to explain electronics questions I'd have missed them all).

On the other hand, the book learning for OW is pretty easy.

As others have commented above, my in-water sessions consisted of demonstrating each skill once in shallow water, and again once in open water. Certainly not "mastery" by any means. But true mastery comes after years of practice. The safety record of recreational diving is the real test of the effectiveness of present teaching methods. Some people will always be uncomfortable breathing from a tank 40 feet or 60 feet or more below the surface of the water with unfamiliar creatures all around. The purpose of certification is to give people the skills to dive safely, not necessarily to push people into a sport they're uncomfortable with.

I don't know the safety statistics for recreational diving, so I don't know how well the certification agencies are doing. But I do feel that I understand my own limits well enough to dive safely as I practice and hone my skills. Knock on wood! <*raps on head with knuckles*>

 

[halocline]

I plan on talking to the shop owner tomorrow, and just letting him know that i am not totally comfortable enough to go on check out dives. I will see how he handles it from there. The shop came highly recommended by people I trust, I think the problem is that they didn't have the instructor I did, they had the owner for an instructor. I will see how he handles the situation and go from there. Again- I do know that before I go out in open water for certification I will spend more time in the pool not only with scuba skills but swimming skills as well. I know that I need to be a stronger swimmer than I am currently (200 yards kicked my butt in a big way!!) and plan on going to the local pool every weekend to work on my endurance.

This is exactly the right approach for you to take. Spend more time in the pool practicing the skills. Almost any dive shop where you take the OW class will allow you to do this free of charge. In fact, the good ones will encourage you to do it. The LDS around here allows all divers certified by the shop to use the pool to practice skills without time limits. This is also good business for the shop, as anytime you get a potential customer in the door (for any reason) it's a plus.

You don't need more instruction, you need more practice. Now, I'm almost sure there's a PADI rule about OW students using scuba gear in a pool unsupervised by an instructor, but usually there's a way to deal with that...if there's another class taking a CW session you can be in the pool practicing, something like that. Ask at the shop.

 

[Necklinsberg]

The more that I read threads like these, the more appreciative of my OW instructors and the course that they led. Six class room nights (2 hours) each followed by an hour of pool time. Twelve students and six instructors (2 master instructors, 2 master trainers, 1 OW instructor, 1 asst), lots of individual training and practice.

 

[RonFrank]

The class sounds very rushed to me. We had two days of training/pool work, not one. IMO two is a bit rushed, but it was OK. We also had an instructor and a DM in the water with us, and maybe 8 students.

I have to wonder if the LDS is renting pool time, hence the one day rush class. In any event...

To The OP:

If you feel that your skills are not where they need to be, contact the LDS, and request more pool time. Our LDS had several dates setup with an instructor in the water so we could have additional pool time to practice.

If you are not comfortable with this LDS, maybe pay the cost of a referral, and find another shop for checkout dives. If you are here telling us you felt rushed, than you were, so make sure you are comfortable with the skills before your CO dives.

 

[TSandM]

I'm really glad the shop said you could have more pool time. Some of us (read my journal -- you might get a kick out of it) take longer to "get" stuff than others, and I'll tell you that, if someone had thrown me into local water after four hours in the pool, I wouldn't be diving today.

Spend the pool time you have to, to feel comfortable in the equipment, and fairly relaxed with the skills, even if you have to pay a little more money to do it. It will make a big difference when you go to open water. Diving is an incredible pastime -- I've never done anything that compares -- but you CAN scare yourself doing it, and you can get hurt, too. Taking the time to be well prepared before you doing any real diving is well worthwhile.