OW Confined dive concerns/questions

[thedebinator]

The instructor should have at a minimum gone over the knowledge reviews and then administer a quiz.-then gone over it's results with students.thats standards.I do a presentation/kr's/quiz for each module,in that order.

Please excuse my use of terms..I am new to this. The way the class I took worked was that on tues & thurs evenings (2 class periods) from 6:00pm to 9:00 pm we went over each chapter and the knowledge reviews then took a quiz (students were expected to read the manual and complete knowledge reviews prior to the first class). On the thurs class we took our final exam. Saturday we met at the dive shop at 8:30 and got our equipment, then went over assembly of the tank and equipment procedures (again for give me if I am not using correct terminology) at about 10:15 or so we got to the pool and did our 200yd swim. After the swim we checked out on each skill for ALL of the modules. (We watched the instructor perform the skill and repeated it for him 1 time) When I had a problem with the alternate airsource (put in my mouth upside down)I popped up to the surface placed the alternate airsource in my mouth resubmerged and swam away with my buddy ( alternate airsource buddy swim portion). I was not asked to repeat the skill.
The original plan presented by the Dive Shop was that pool days were Sat & Sun from 9:00 -2:00 on Sat and 9:00 to 1:00 Sunday ( I know that part of the time in the scheduled periods included set up time and out of water time, That is not my beef. My problem/concern is that there were a lot of skills to be covered in the 5 pool modules, enough that the school originally shceduled for 2 class days, and a maximumly load class with one instructor managed to complete that 2 days of material in one 4 hour session.)yes, we were asked if we wanted to continue on to the next days material (i personally felt like I didn't have a choice), but i was not asked if i was comfortable with a skill more than after completing the skill the instructor asking if I was ok (when I signified that I was, I was only signifying that I was ok at that particular moment) I personally feel that more time should be spent on a particular skill than just a minute or two on each skill.

 

[Thalassamania]

Pretty much run of the mill. This is the problem all of the old timers are complaining about. There is a huge difference between a 20 hour course and a 100 hour course. The short course results in divers that are not comfortable in the water. They usually scare themselves silly and take up golf.

It's just this sort of "run of the mill" that results in people going out into open water insufficiently comfortable to enjoy themselves and dropping out. There is a huge difference between 100 hr (or even a 40 hr) course and what you're being subjected to, hell there's big dfference between a 20 hr course that is spread out over a reasonable time and one that everything jammed in the way your's does. I'm sorry you did not find a better program. Try and make the point that you do not feel you have "mastered" the skills (that's what standards say you need to do) and perhaps you'll be able to get more training time.

 

[rstofer]

There's going to be some controversy on this posting. So be it...

Just as soon as you complete your OW certification, sign up for Advanced Open Water. It's ok if you make some supervised checkout dives before AOW but try to avoid diving with either a very experienced diver or another OW diver. A very experienced diver may not take the time to help you through your learning process. Another OW diver may not have the skills to help anyway.

You are taking the AOW for the specific reason that you will do 5 supervised dives under the watchful eye on an instructor. Oh, make sure the class size is limited - something like 4, tops. It is unfortunate that this will include a deep dive to 100' (well, more than 70') but with a small enough group and a good instructor this will go well. Pay attention to your pressure gauge.

Others will suggest that you have a bunch of dives before signing up for AOW. My concern is who are you diving with?

Once you finish AOW, get a dozen dives or so and sign up for Rescue. This will be the most helpful class you will ever take. Recognizing stress, dealing with panic (including your own) and self-rescue will really get you started with this hobby.

Opinions will vary on this suggestion. When I started with the old NAUI program, I did OW I, OW II and Advanced OW with only 2 leisure dives in the middle. I followed it a couple of weeks later with Rescue. I had to take First Aid and CPR first.

Training is the key to enjoying this hobby. The more you can get and the earlier you can get it, the better. In my view...

Richard

 

[Mozart(UK)]

Try and make the point that you do not feel you have "mastered" the skills (that's what standards say you need to do) and perhaps you'll be able to get more training time.

I agree with Thalassamania. The Instructor is required to assess your "mastery" of a skill. If you don't feel that you have mastered it, you need to let your instructor know and express your concerns about going onto the open water sections of the course.

Dive centres should be familiar with this type of apprehension and be able to put something in place to relieve the stress. A couple extra hours coaching should help or ask to be put back to the next course.

The most important thing is don't give up; finish the course because once you get out into open water, you will love it.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

If you do sign up for AOW immediately after OW do it with another shop that will do as I do and evaluate your skills before allowing you to do AOW. If I do not know the diver or their instructor we will do at least one pool session and if I feel it's needed a dive or two before taking someone to 90-100 feet and on the other dives we will do. And I do this on my time and at my expense. I'll then decide whether or not to train you or suggest coming and just dive with me or others who will help you. If you cannot hold a hover, know how to figure out your own weighting, or stay off the bottom you are not ready for AOW IMO.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Those posters who are advising hurrying into AOW are putting the horse before the cart IMHO. Let's deal / help with the current situation and there may not be a need to hurry into AOW.

The way the class I took worked was that on tues & thurs evenings (2 class periods) from 6:00pm to 9:00 pm we went over each chapter and the knowledge reviews then took a quiz (students were expected to read the manual and complete knowledge reviews prior to the first class). On the thurs class we took our final exam.

I'm going to look at your situation from a glass half full perspective, rather than most previous posters. I have always considered the 3-day class to actually be a 4-day class for the student; a day for the book, a long day for Academics and CW with 2 short days for 2 dives each - approximately 32 hours.

When I talk to students about the class schedule I tell them reading the entire book and completing as much of the Knowledge Reviews as they can will be ~8 hours. Your class was instructed to do this; how many students did?

Here in the Islands it is typical for the first day with the instructor to be a long day, completing all the Academics in the morning and all the Pool Sessions in the afternoon (if done in confined open water morning is better for skills - 2 half days). Your class got 6 hrs for academics; 2 hrs more than my typical (for half you class size) which sounds better than average to me.

The original plan presented by the Dive Shop was that pool days were Sat & Sun from 9:00 - 2:00 on Sat and 9:00 - 1:00 Sunday.

So the dive shop scheduled 9 hours for the Pool Sessions, which is twice what I hope for (again with half the students); sounds like the dive shop plan was as good or better than any LDS I have been affiliated with, comparable to the CDC where I did my IDC.

You say the CW training was completed in 4 hrs; did that include the swim? What relationship does the instructor have with the dive shop; owner, related to owner, full time, part time, on call (independent)? It would be interesting to know the instructor pay; if it is per student, skipping Sunday means less days of work for the same pay! I agree with you that the CW sounds rushed; ~ the same as mine for half the students (who have no problems)!

I agree with the advice to ask the instructor or dive shop for more pool time!

Finally; what was the original OW plan? You mentioned all 4 dives in one day; as stated before, most agencies do not allow more than 3 training dives per day (for students at least ).

 

[rstofer]

I like Jim Lap's approach of evaluating the student at the beginning of AOW. This is not commonly done. In fact, it is probably unheard of. But it's the right thing to do. Make sure the basics are solid and then move along.

My basic recommendation is for more supervised dives. It's just more comfortable knowing an instructor is nearby while you make the first dives. Unfortunately, at the end of Rescue you will only have 13 dives in a class setting and the 4 Rescue dives aren't really dives. Most of the work is on the surface!

Nine dives for OW and AOW is not a lot. But during the Rescue class you will begin focusing outward. It's not about your diving, it's about the victim's. You finally start doing something in the water.

NAUI had it right way back when: OW I - 5 dives, OW II - 6 dives, AOW - 8 dives, Rescue - 1 skin dive + 2 scuba sessions. Unfortunately, NAUI chased PADI downward.

Richard

 

[thedebinator]

Those posters who are advising hurrying into AOW are putting the horse before the cart IMHO. Let's deal / help with the current situation and there may not be a need to hurry into AOW.)

Don't I know it.I just want to get comfortable enough to do my certification dives, and pass and not drown myself.

You say the CW training was completed in 4 hrs; did that include the swim? What relationship does the instructor have with the dive shop; owner, related to owner, full time, part time, on call (independent)? It would be interesting to know the instructor pay; if it is per student, skipping Sunday means less days of work for the same pay! I agree with you that the CW sounds rushed; ~ the same as mine for half the students (who have no problems)!

Yes it included the swim. As far as the instructor, he is an employee. I have no idea how he gets paid. I do know that he said a couple of times that he was tired and hadn't had a day of in over a month (He has a full time job, and is in the National Guard as well doing scuba instruction) and was trying to get us through so we wouldn't have to come back the next day.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

This is even more disturbing to me. If you are not comfortable with the skills as you now have them it is in your best interest to speak up to the shop owner. Do it nicely and with all the facts. I'd stay away from blaming the instructor right away. Even though it is their fault due to their policies it will get you nowhere if you jump down their throats right away. Explain that you simply do not feel comfortable with your knowledge and skill development to this point. Tell them you want the instruction you paid for. Do not threaten to call the agency at this point. Chances are that if it;s a busy shop that is buying alot of materials you'll get nowhere anyway. Been there, done that. Unless someone dies or is seriously hurt one complaint will be overlooked.

If they refuse to give you more time or instruction run to another shop. Explain what happened and why. If you came to me I'd go over all the materials to our standards and then do the required number of pool sessions. If I felt you had picked up enough to spend less time on certain skills we might do that. But more than likely I'd go over everything.

I would not charge you full course price but could not do it for free. The amount would depend on how much instruction you actually needed. I would have to have you do the swims(300 yds by our agency, 15 min tread, 50 ft underwater swim) and go over the snorkeling/skin diving skills. We would then move on to scuba. My course is 32 hours long- 16 pool, 16 classroom, plus the checkout dives. I am allowed to shorten the pool time but if I do then I must add additional instruction on the OW dives.

In any case good luck resolving this. Unfortunately I fear that this is not an unheard of occurrence and is one of the major problems facing the industry today. Coupled with the fact that some agencies allow this to happen with little or no consequences to the perpetrators. Unfortunately they also can getaway with it because new divers do not know what they do not know. THey only find out after the fact or by coming to boards like this for answers. Hopefully these types of boards, coupled with the economy, will begin to spread the word and weed out these types of things. You want value for your money- you did not get it or you would not have these reservations.

 

[thedebinator]

If you are not comfortable with the skills as you now have them it is in your best interest to speak up to the shop owner.

I plan on talking to the shop owner tomorrow, and just letting him know that i am not totally comfortable enough to go on check out dives. I will see how he handles it from there. The shop came highly recommended by people I trust, I think the problem is that they didn't have the instructor I did, they had the owner for an instructor. I will see how he handles the situation and go from there. Again- I do know that before I go out in open water for certification I will spend more time in the pool not only with scuba skills but swimming skills as well. I know that I need to be a stronger swimmer than I am currently (200 yards kicked my butt in a big way!!) and plan on going to the local pool every weekend to work on my endurance.