Redesigning AOW

[MikeFerrara]

What makes you think that people who would cheap out on purchasing dive instruction would buy equipment that comes with a user's manual ... or would read it if they did?

I wouldn't call it "cheaping out". Some people are just more independant than others. Some are self starters and take responsibility. Others just wait for someone else to tell them what to do and wait for permission to do it.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Talk to people, read books and look at the internet. It is of course difficult to know if you know enough. The problem is that you cant be sure to know enough if you take a course either.

And how will you determine if the advice you are getting is good advice? Some of the things I read here on ScubaBoard make me cringe ... because I KNOW it's bad, even dangerous, advice. But I know that from experience. The inexperienced diver has no way to know whether or not what someone is saying is valid information.

At least with a formal class, the information you are getting has been "vetted" by people who know what they're talking about. The issue isn't that you're getting bad information ... it's that you're generally not getting enough information.

But this is really the problem I have with mandatory instruction. I dont want to trust my life on someone else. Definitely not someone I dont know. I want to know as much as possibly before I do something. You put your life in someone else hands and have to follow his risk analysis.

Well, first off ... dive instruction isn't mandatory. Anyone can dive. What that OW card really gets you is the ability to rent gear and get tanks filled at commercial shops. Anyone can purchase dive gear and a compressor and dive to their heart's content without ever having taken a class.

I know about students having accidents in other sports, also fatal ones, where the reason for the accidents was that the instructor did things in a way I would never do as a fellow instructor.

Are you an instructor? It would be helpful to have a little knowledge of your background, since ... based on your prior posts ... I was of the opinion that you are a relatively new diver.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[raymond phule]

After diving with my buddies new students on a few occasions, what I find is that while they are generally still total newbies, they exhibit (or attempt to) skills that I don't see in most new OW divers. Most attempt to remain in a Horizontal position, arms in front of them, knees bent with feet above their body position, and they sometimes are trying to frog kick. They generally don't have the buoyancy skills to prevent them from returning to the flutter kick to stay nuteral, but I have been very impressed watching these students.

I don't see these qualities in most other OW students, and I wish more dive shops would promote better form UW as it will go a long way in giving the divers a good start.

This is very important and people have said it before. Students try to do more advanced skills if they see it been done and if they understand that they should try to achive them.

But ofcourse not a word about frog kicks in the OW manual.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I wouldn't call it "cheaping out". Some people are just more independant than others. Some are self starters and take responsibility. Others just wait for someone else to tell them what to do and wait for permission to do it.

I think those are simply two ends of a spectrum ... with a wide variety of options in between. Most people fall somewhere in the middle.

But the fact is that the majority of people who take up diving do cheap out. If they didn't, we wouldn't be having this conversation. I've worked for shops that offered a comprehensive OW class ... and charged for it accordingly. The first question most people wanted to know is why we charged $375 for the same card they could get down the street for $125, and in a third the time. After taking the time to explain it to them, the majority opted to sign up down the street. That's why our classes typically had 4 to 6 students, while the guy down the street typically had 20.

You can blame the agencies all you want, Mike ... but it ain't gonna change a thing. They're selling the product the way they are because that's what most people want to buy.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

This is very important and people have said it before. Students try to do more advanced skills if they see it been done and if they understand that they should try to achive them.

But ofcourse not a word about frog kicks in the OW manual.

The OW manual my YMCA instructor used (Jepperson) states that frog kicks aren't very useful in scuba diving. It was otherwise a pretty good manual.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Walter]

Rather than bashing agencies for training, maybe what we as divers and instructors can do is to work harder on promoting diving, and working with new divers.

Who's bashing anyone? We're merely discussing how a class could be improved.

 

[Ber Rabbit]

I dont know. The course was a little longer than I thought but the ideal case is 3 nights and a weekend. Not that long.

My class is 1 pool session, 8 classroom sessions and 5 days of diving (2.5 weekends). One question on my final exam is "What would you like to see added to this class?" Even with a class that long the students still have a long list of things they would like to see me add to the class and I use their ideas to improve my teaching.
Ber :lilbunny:

 

[raymond phule]

Are you an instructor? It would be helpful to have a little knowledge of your background, since ... based on your prior posts ... I was of the opinion that you are a relatively new diver.

I am a new diver but an instructor and active participant in several other "extreme" sports. I belive I can use some of that knowledge in a discussion about diving.

Certificate is in principal mandatory if you dont want to dive by your self.

Yes, it could be hard to know what is correct information but this haven't really been a problem for me so far in several other sports. There are usually good information available somewhere and it is usually not that hard to determine what are good. Looking at the internet could be scary though...

 

[captain]

Fundamentally untrue.

I did my first couple of dives without training ... borrowing someone else's gear and taking it into Lake Winnapesaukee (New Hampster). In hindsight I could've easily killed myself because I didn't know not to hold my breath while ascending, and I didn't know how to clear my ears. Fortunately, the latter ignorance kept me from descending more than 15 or 20 feet. Still could've embolized easily enough ... I simply got lucky.

My commercial training taught me how to not hurt myself that way before I ever even got in a pool. Granted, it was lacking in a lot of ways. But it provided me a platform to learn in a relatively safe way. Considering what I paid for that training, I more than got my money's worth ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Did you not have some curiosity to read up on at least the basics before jumping in.
As a 13 year old I at least read everything I could find about diving before I jumped in and knew very well what the basic dangers were and how to avoid them.

 

[Walter]

You can blame the agencies all you want, Mike ... but it ain't gonna change a thing. They're selling the product the way they are because that's what most people want to buy.

I, for one, believe that's the way it should be. I think PADI will always be the biggest agency because it sells the fastest class around. I don't have a problem with that. I object to misleading people. That class down the street does not have the quality you put into yours. They should not be allowed to mislead people into thinking that it does. McDonalds sells more food than anyone, but at least they don't try to convince people it's high quality. They are much more honest than the industry of dive instruction.