Redesigning AOW

[Walter]

hardly anyone gets killed.

Why is the death rate ever used as a measure of quality?

But in posting this, I was trying to keep my proposed course within the basic parameters of what exists, so that no one could raise the objection that it took too much time, too many resources (eg. pool rental) or would cost too much.

There's very little you can do to improve the class without making it longer. You can eliminate the electives and assign all the dives to eliminate fluff and give real experience, but without adding academics, that's of limited use and without at least doubling the number of dives you haven't really given them any diving experience. Nine dives vs four dives? Assuming the two divers took the same OW class any difference in diver quality will depend much more on natural ability than who has 5 additional dives with an instructor.

 

[raymond phule]

There's very little you can do to improve the class without making it longer.

Bob's class seems like a good class and it is not much longer. I belive you can learn a skilled interested diver quite a lot in 5 dives. It doesn't make much experience but I dont belive diving with an instructor gives much experience either.

The problem here is the difference in skill and talent for the students. You cant learn my 60 years old mum to dive in a short time but I belive you could get Will Gadd to a reasonable level in a couple of days.

So I belive the main problem is that people want to have one course for everybody. Then is it probably going to result in a course that is good for the least talented diver.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Bob's class seems like a good class and it is not much longer. I belive you can learn a skilled interested diver quite a lot in 5 dives. It doesn't make much experience but I dont belive diving with an instructor gives much experience either.

The problem here is the difference in skill and talent for the students. You cant learn my 60 years old mum to dive in a short time but I belive you could get Will Gadd to a reasonable level in a couple of days.

So I belive the main problem is that people want to have one course for everybody. Then is it probably going to result in a course that is good for the least talented diver.

This is really a good observation. In the ideal case, my course will run about a week ... with class work on three weeknight evenings and the six dives conducted over the week-end. That's a tough way to do it, but some students want to, and are ready for it.

More normally, the dives are spread out over a two or three week-end period, with students repeating some dives because they didn't quite get it right the first time.

In some cases, the class can take several weeks ... with me encouraging the students to get out and practice on their own before trying a given dive a second or third time.

A caveat here ... price. I charge $250 for my class. Most instructors couldn't afford to put in the kind of time I do for that price. Profit isn't my motive ... I have a good job that pays me well. I teach because I enjoy teaching ... and what I enjoy the most is watching the progression of my students over the duration of the class. The majority of instructors ... even the very good ones ... wouldn't have the same motivations.

Most students don't really become better divers over the duration of a class. What they take away from it is the knowledge of what they need to do in order to improve. It's then up to them to get out there and practice those skills until they become second nature. Where a lot of classes fall short is in their failure to make it clear to the student what they need to do to improve, and then to provide the knowledge base needed to get there. The dives need to focus on skills development, with time set aside for both practice and evaluation. If more practice is required, a time needs to be provide dfor re-evaluation. If profit is your motive (as it should be in most cases) then that kind of instruction won't come at prices most scuba students are willing to pay.

The simple fact is that if you want good instruction, you need to be willing to pay for it ... in time, money, and effort.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MikeFerrara]

Why is the death rate ever used as a measure of quality?

You know the answer to that. It's because it's all we ask of our training. If the diver lives, the training must be good.

Since many divers with no formal training survive we have to admit that the commercial training that's commonly available is every bit as good as nothing.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

You know the answer to that. It's because it's all we ask of our training. If the diver lives, the training must be good.

Since many divers with no formal training survive we have to admit that the commercial training that's commonly available is every bit as good as nothing.

Fundamentally untrue.

I did my first couple of dives without training ... borrowing someone else's gear and taking it into Lake Winnapesaukee (New Hampster). In hindsight I could've easily killed myself because I didn't know not to hold my breath while ascending, and I didn't know how to clear my ears. Fortunately, the latter ignorance kept me from descending more than 15 or 20 feet. Still could've embolized easily enough ... I simply got lucky.

My commercial training taught me how to not hurt myself that way before I ever even got in a pool. Granted, it was lacking in a lot of ways. But it provided me a platform to learn in a relatively safe way. Considering what I paid for that training, I more than got my money's worth ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[TwoBitTxn]

Why is the death rate ever used as a measure of quality?

It's easy to measure. Or easier. It also results in a really low number that shows what people want to show.

TwoBit

 

[raymond phule]

In hindsight I could've easily killed myself because I didn't know not to hold my breath while ascending, and I didn't know how to clear my ears.

Do you often do things without any information at all? Couldn't you atleast asked your friends about the basics?

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Do you often do things without any information at all? Couldn't you atleast asked your friends about the basics?

Actually, I was with the diver who owned the equipment. Unfortunately, I didn't know what he forgot to tell me ... it was only years later that I realized how lucky I had been.

As to your first question ... of course ... we all do at times ... :blinking:

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MikeFerrara]

Fundamentally untrue.

I did my first couple of dives without training ... borrowing someone else's gear and taking it into Lake Winnapesaukee (New Hampster). In hindsight I could've easily killed myself because I didn't know not to hold my breath while ascending, and I didn't know how to clear my ears. Fortunately, the latter ignorance kept me from descending more than 15 or 20 feet. Still could've embolized easily enough ... I simply got lucky.

My commercial training taught me how to not hurt myself that way before I ever even got in a pool. Granted, it was lacking in a lot of ways. But it provided me a platform to learn in a relatively safe way. Considering what I paid for that training, I more than got my money's worth ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Why do you assume that the self taught diver must be completely ignorant in matters of basic physics and physiology?

 

[Walter]

Bob's class seems like a good class and it is not much longer.

Bob seems to disagree with you.

In the ideal case, my course will run about a week ... with class work on three weeknight evenings and the six dives conducted over the week-end. ........................

More normally, the dives are spread out over a two or three week-end period, with students repeating some dives because they didn't quite get it right the first time.

In some cases, the class can take several weeks ... with me encouraging the students to get out and practice on their own before trying a given dive a second or third time.

A caveat here ... price. I charge $250 for my class. Most instructors couldn't afford to put in the kind of time I do for that price.......................

The simple fact is that if you want good instruction, you need to be willing to pay for it ... in time, money, and effort.