Redesigning AOW

[MXGratefulDiver]

Please tell us a little more about this dive. If I were to take students out to 50' deep water here on a day when we could not see the bottom from 20' deep, only wild guesses would get you back to the down line after a decent sized rectangular or triangular course. The impossible circular course might actually have a higher success rate. I could only see this dive in a stagnant body of water (ie quarry or pond) which many divers do not have access to (not to mention desire).

That's pretty much the issue ... people need to be trained for the conditions they'll be diving in. Puget Sound vis is typically somewhere between 10 to 25 feet ... so it's very easy to find yourself in a situation where you cannot see the bottom. This is especially true if a current takes you off a wall, or if you're diving off a boat or on a pinnacle and fail to locate the upline. These are common occurrances here, so the need to be able to dive, ascend, navigate, etc. without visual references is important. I've had more than one former student thank me for this experience after encountering conditions like that.

The actual navigation is not really the purpose of the dive. The purpose of the dive is to give the student practice at handling their buoyancy while task-loaded ... because in a real-life dive where they encounter a situation like I described above, that's exactly what they're going to have to do.

But ... in point of fact ... it's not impossible. Most of my students succeed at getting back to the buoy line. Sometimes it takes a few attempts. Those that don't actually find the buoy line end up getting to practice controlled mid-water ascents ... only to discover that they were within less than 50 feet of where they wanted to be. In your waters, that would've put them close enough for a visual.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Hawkwood]

Depends on how they're taught.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

and if I may be so bold add: what they're taught, and where they're taught.

I mentioned in a post in a related thread that my wife did her AOW while we were in Cozumel. Keep in mind that this is also the type of location that she will ever dive in - her words, her choice.

For her AOW she took Drift, Bouyancy, and Enriched Air (also completed the specialty), along with the required Deep and Navigation. The operators want to see the AOW for the "deeper" dives, hence her wanting to do the AOW. She only intends to dive in clear, warm, tropical waters - she took her AOW in the conditions in which she plans to dive. The three "elective" dives were pretty well tailored to the type of diving that she will do (drift and boat mostly) as well as learning to get better control of bouyancy to control herself around the reef (either while hovering or zipping along in the current). She took the enriched air as she felt she wanted to understand the benefits to her (age and other conditions that could make her prone to DCS).

I think she did a good job of deciding what she wanted and got what she needed.

 

[Walter]

First off, I'd have most if not all of the dives be required, rather than the "subject tasting" structure of the existing (at least PADI) class.

Excellent idea!

Now, the required dives might vary with area, but the material of the five dives

Why 5 dives? One of the problems with the AOW courses is they require only 5 or 6 dives. Beef it up, require a minimum of 10. 15 or 20 would be even better.

Second, one of the required dives would be a skills dive, where the divers practiced such things as clearing a flooded mask, recovering a regulator, and sharing air WHILE DIVING.

Nope. Make mastering those skills a prerequisite.

Peak performance buoyancy would be a required dive, and the goal of it would be not only to get the diver properly weighted, but to get them into something approaching a stable horizontal position in the water.

Again, work on skills they should have learned in the OW class prior to the class actually starting.

Peter thinks the deep dive should be included, to give the divers an opportunity to experience narcosis under supervision. But it should include some basic information on gas management (eg. rock bottom and an introduction to SAC rates).

I would agree with Peter IF he hadn't said, "the deep dive." An Advanced class should include multiple deep dives.

Both of us agree that a dive to practice navigational skills should be included.

Compass and natural navigation are essential.

Unless you do nothing but dive off boats with a guide, you are going to have to do some navigating.

Even then, it's a really good idea to know how to find your way home. Trust me dives are a really bad idea.

The last dive could be region-specific. For example, in the PNW, a dry suit dive might be a reasonable one to include. For places where most diving is done off boats, a boat dive (to include such things as the use of emergency signaling devices, and gas planning for a mandatory return to the upline) might be more useful.[/quote]

Once again, work on skills they should have learned in the OW class prior to the class actually starting.

But overall I think the AOW class is exactly what a beginning diver needs because it gives them a sample of different types of dives under the direct supervision of an instructor.

Those who've taken the typical poor class do need the typical AOW, but they also need lots of skill that are not in the AOW class either. The typical OW and AOW fall far short of what people need to be reasonably safe underwater.

AOW should be a sampler class.

Why? AOW should be an advanced class. If folks want a sampler class, offer a class called "specialty samples."

And if they want to improve their skills even more, they should take a Rescue class.

Wrong tool. Rescue is designed to learn new skills.

When I went through my aow my instructors told the class 'advanced' was a misnomer. The purpose of the course was to enhance our o/w course which we had recently completed and to give us the opportunity to conduct additional dives with our instructor.

What a crock!

OW does not make you a competant diver

But it should.

no No NO!!!! People have to understand that the Open water class is an extremely efficient means to allow people to blow bubbles 60 ft down in optimal conditions. Most all divers that finish open water are just barely competant to do ANYTHING. But what can we expect from the ridiculously simple and abreviated course?

My feeling is that most new divers NEED to immediately be enrolled in a follow up class ASAP. This is a dangerous time for them in their training/diving career and they really should be supervised; either by an instructor or by friends that are very experienced and who are willing to help. My feeling is that the AOW is very effective at getting people just a little more experience and hopefully in a relativel safe environment.

I don't follow your logic. The OW course sucks, so instead of fixing it, let's have an AOW course that sucks, but kinda fixes some of the problems of the OW course. Why not fix the OW course instead?

I'm also awaiting my instructor materials to look into the YMCA silver and gold diver programs. They sound more like what and advanced class should be. Maybe Walter can furnish some details?

The Silver Advanced course is a true advanced course, unlike AOW (which sucks in the Y program just as badly as it sucks in other programs). It's far from ideal, but it's an excellent course. I never taught an AOW class. All of my advanced students took my Silver Advanced class to which I added requirements I believed necessary. The biggest difference between Silver Advanced and AOW is Silver Advanced has twice as many dives and real academics, twice as many required dives and actual skills (an example of a required skill in the Silver advanced class is to make an entry without wearing your mask, descend, put your mask on and clear it - there are others). The weakness of Silver Advanced is it is also designed around a few (4 - night or limited viz, navigation, search & recovery and deep) required dives and elective (6) dives. I eliminated the electives and made all the dives required when I taught the class, making both night and low viz required as well as adding wreck and additional deep dives. I required fresh and salt water dives as well as both beach and boat dives. I also required all my students to make float dives.

The Gold Master Diver course requires a Silver Advanced certification, and includes 10 additional dives in various areas (no electives from a list) with lots of skills you aren't likely to encounter in other classes.

I offer a comprehinsive AOW worth the money Home no complaints so far

What does it include that makes it "comprehinsive"?

Maybe I shouldn't say this BUT the one thing that I have noticed is that during OW & AOW is that there isn't any RESCUE taught of any real significance until after AOW.

Look outside the box. PADI isn't the only game. NAUI and YMCA both include rescue skills in the entry level class.

it finished the intro job that was left undone by my OW class, and gave me a few more dives under some supervision

I'd be surprised if it did. Most of what is left out of a typical OW class is never taught in future classes.

I don't know that it could be taught to a new diver very effectively. You

It can. To do it, you have to change your mindset for teaching the OW class and to a better job from the start. It's actually easier for both the student and instructor, but does take more time.

Only real Rescue skills taught in OpenH2O are the Tired Diver Tows.

Read YMCA's standards. Read NAUI's standards. You'll learn differently.

AOW is mandatory for rescue.

Lots of folks are stuck inside that PADI box. Step outside and breathe.

True...but some ops won't take you on certain dives unless you have a card that says ou are qualified.

The AOW card doesn't qualify you for anything and it does say you are qualified to do more than dive, the same as your OW card.

 

[LowVizWiz]

Not sure but you may be talking about two different programs: The PADI Intro/Discover/Resort dive is an open water dive after a short lecture and quick confined water session. After the initial CW session the diver may typically continue instructor guided open water diving for his entire stay at that resort without any more CW sessions. PADI Scuba Divers do get a c-card, for getting half way through the OW course (Chapter 1-3 KR's, quizzes 1-3, CW 1-3, OW 1 & 2, plus a couple required dive optional skills). This allows pro guided diving down to 40', anywhere, forever (theoretically). Dive shops are not supposedly allowed to supply Scuba Divers with fills or gear for non-pro led dives.

Thanks for the clarification.
What I was trying to get at was that a modified OW should be limited to guided dives, the way those with "resort certifications" dive. While the modified AOW or OW2 or insert the name you prefer here would allow non-guided dives as an incentive to get those who desire better training to continue in their education.

BTW, how are the partially completed OW cards marked? I have never seen one. I would imagine they would have to have something to inform a shop or charter op of the limitations on that certification.

Wys.

 

[jbmooney]

Well, you're an instructor and I'm not, so I guess the analogy was either poorly expressed or too deeply flawed to be useful. Ded reckoning flying (and sailing) was more successful than you might think in the early days, but you're certainly right that it was much less precise that it is today.

What I was getting at was that at no point was it purely a "wild guess", nor need it be for a diver, I think. DR is an old and well developed art, and should be entirely manageable underwater. It may be impossible to achieve pinpoint accuracy, but if you need that level of accuracy to get you to where you need to go without any visual cues at all, you need that radio beacon (or maybe a flashing light, or a line reel?) Otherwise, I have to believe it's useful to be able to navigate to within visual range, and even more useful to know what your level of proficiency is, so you know what visual range is safe to work in without extra aids.

That said, I don't think I could manage it well yet, because I haven't had any practice underwater at determining two of the four essential ingredients for DR, how fast I'm going and what the current is doing (I know the other two - I have a compass and a watch). It sounds as though Bob's course may address those shortcomings (as well as dealing with the task loading issue). The one I took didn't, and I'll have to resolve those problems either myself or with other instruction - not as good, in my view.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

I don't follow your logic. The OW course sucks, so instead of fixing it, let's have an AOW course that sucks, but kinda fixes some of the problems of the OW course. Why not fix the OW course instead?.

Well I agree that the OW course does suck, but it is very efficient and cheap and hardly anyone gets killed. If they are not going to make the OW course more involved (which will probably not happen), then the only logical solution is to get people into another class, ASAP.

My primary point was that divers should generally not try to accrue experience on their own after OW unless they have another reliable source for "guidance". Getting people into an AOW quickly is very unlikley to turn them off from diving. It may make them be hesitant to pursue any more additional training (if the AOW) sucks, but completion of an AOW DOES provide them some very useful experience. Certainly both courses could be longer and more involved.

 

[jbd]

AOW is mandatory for rescue.

Not with NAUI. The Rescue class can be taken afte getting the OW certification.

Ooops, I see Bob had already replied to this issue. Also I refreshed my memory to verify that SSI also does not require AOW prior to taking their rescue course as amascuba noted also---please excuse my lateness

 

[TSandM]

Walter, as you know, you and I are on the same wavelength when it comes to the holes in diver training.

But in posting this, I was trying to keep my proposed course within the basic parameters of what exists, so that no one could raise the objection that it took too much time, too many resources (eg. pool rental) or would cost too much.

I just think you could offer an "OW II" class that really taught useful things, WITHOUT having to make it much longer or much more expensive. You'd have to rule out using things like a "DPV dive" (which was my last AOW dive, and consisted of touring the local underwater park on Seadoos, which taught me nothing about the use of scooters, the dangers inherent in their use, or the maintenance or troubleshooting of scooters) and provide dives that had some briefing beforehand on what was to be learned, and some debrief afterwards on what WAS learned, what perhaps was not performed to standard, and where we go from here.

 

[jbd]

The actual navigation is not really the purpose of the dive. The purpose of the dive is to give the student practice at handling their buoyancy while task-loaded ... because in a real-life dive where they encounter a situation like I described above, that's exactly what they're going to have to do.

But ... in point of fact ... it's not impossible. Most of my students succeed at getting back to the buoy line. Sometimes it takes a few attempts. Those that don't actually find the buoy line end up getting to practice controlled mid-water ascents ... only to discover that they were within less than 50 feet of where they wanted to be. In your waters, that would've put them close enough for a visual.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Bob's comments here are why I conduct the same type of navigation dives with my students in both the OW and AOW course. Besides the diving aspect there is also the land based activities of planning as well as determining bearings to be used to get to the various objectives.

 

[raymond phule]

Lots of folks are stuck inside that PADI box. Step outside and breathe.

Not with NAUI. The Rescue class can be taken afte getting the OW certification.

The only agencis where I live at this level are PADI and CMAS. CMAS** is also supposed to be a kind of rescue course.