Redesigning AOW

[raymond phule]

As to your first question ... of course ... we all do at times ...

Yes, I would atleast not borrow a base rig and go to the closest exit point without any information. The same with scuba. But ofcourse everybody do some dangerous things without realising it.

I belive I read that lamont (or someone else) had a discovery scuba and that the instructor didn't tell him to never hold your breath...

So an instructor doesn't always explain everything either.

I simple think the last example are a lot more important and scary. You and your buddy was mostly stupid in my opinion.

 

[Walter]

Fundamentally untrue.

I did my first couple of dives without training ... borrowing someone else's gear and taking it into Lake Winnapesaukee (New Hampster). In hindsight I could've easily killed myself because I didn't know not to hold my breath while ascending, and I didn't know how to clear my ears.

Bob, those are things easily learned without taking a class. Most of the pioneers in SCUBA learned them from a brief booklet that came with their regulator. If that's your objection, I'd submit that with the assumption that people know how to equalize and not to hold their breath, Mike is correct.

 

[raymond phule]

Bob seems to disagree with you.

I dont know. The course was a little longer than I thought but the ideal case is 3 nights and a weekend. Not that long.

I also wrote what I belive was the problem. My 60 year old mum would need much more than 3 nights and a weekend but a more talented person could probably do it in that time.

Why should every one have to take a 30 dives class if some people have done all the excercises after 6 dives?

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Yes, I would atleast not borrow a base rig and go to the closest exit point without any information. The same with scuba. But ofcourse everybody do some dangerous things without realising it.

How would you determine what information you need to know?

I belive I read that lamont (or someone else) had a discovery scuba and that the instructor didn't tell him to never hold your breath...

One of the issues I have with the way scuba instruction is set up is that it's too easy for someone to become an instructor. Divemaster is even easier ... I know several DM's I wouldn't trust to dive with anyone I cared about. The other thing is that the instructors who teach classes like Discover Scuba ... to the people who are most vulnerable to injury through ignorance ... are the ones who've most recently become instructors (and therefore the most likely to overlook something important).

So an instructor doesn't always explain everything either.

Instructors make mistakes too ... welcome to the human race.

You and your buddy was mostly stupid in my opinion.

I can be very stupid at times ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Bob, those are things easily learned without taking a class. Most of the pioneers in SCUBA learned them from a brief booklet that came with their regulator. If that's your objection, I'd submit that with the assumption that people know how to equalize and not to hold their breath, Mike is correct.

What makes you think that people who would cheap out on purchasing dive instruction would buy equipment that comes with a user's manual ... or would read it if they did?

I write instruction manuals for a living, and I can tell you from 30+ years of experience that most people don't read them.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Walter]

What makes you think that people who would cheap out on purchasing dive instruction would buy equipment that comes with a user's manual ... or would read it if they did?

All regulators were sold with a user's manual and dive instruction was largely unavailable, they weren't "cheaping out."

 

[Walter]

I dont know. The course was a little longer than I thought but the ideal case is 3 nights and a weekend. Not that long.

No, it's not that long, but it's over twice as long (in the ideal case) as a typical 5 dives over 2 days AOW class.

 

[raymond phule]

How would you determine what information you need to know?

Talk to people, read books and look at the internet. It is of course difficult to know if you know enough. The problem is that you cant be sure to know enough if you take a course either.

One of the issues I have with the way scuba instruction is set up is that it's too easy for someone to become an instructor. Divemaster is even easier ... I know several DM's I wouldn't trust to dive with anyone I cared about. The other thing is that the instructors who teach classes like Discover Scuba ... to the people who are most vulnerable to injury through ignorance ... are the ones who've most recently become instructors (and therefore the most likely to overlook something important).

But this is really the problem I have with mandatory instruction. I dont want to trust my life on someone else. Definitely not someone I dont know. I want to know as much as possibly before I do something. You put your life in someone else hands and have to follow his risk analysis.

I know about students having accidents in other sports, also fatal ones, where the reason for the accidents was that the instructor did things in a way I would never do as a fellow instructor.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

All regulators were sold with a user's manual and dive instruction was largely unavailable, they weren't "cheaping out."

You're talking about "then" ... I'm talking about "now".

If dive instruction ... even as bad as you and Mike make it out to be ... weren't available today, there'd still be people out there trying it on their own. And for the most part they wouldn't be buying new gear or reading manuals.

It's human nature, Walter ... happens in a lot of recreational endeavors.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[RonFrank]

Ironically, TSandM's description of AOW is almost exactly what our LDS does.

We did PP-Buoyancy, Nav, Night, Deep, and Altitude (Planning).

We did not do a skills dive as she suggested. The class was no where near as rigorous as what Bob teaches. But I would hardly say it was a waste of time.

I did this right out of OW, and IMO that is the way to go. The best thing an new OW diver can do is to either take more training, or dive with experienced divers. For many OW divers, they don't know experienced divers, so AOW is certainly a good option.

Rather than bashing agencies for training, maybe what we as divers and instructors can do is to work harder on promoting diving, and working with new divers. I KNOW Bob has done so.. Look how well TSandM turned out!

My buddy in ABQ also does this. Their dive shops has an open invitation to dive on the third Sunday of any month with an instructor.

I also find that what the instructor brings to the table is HUGE (no new news here). After diving with my buddies new students on a few occasions, what I find is that while they are generally still total newbies, they exhibit (or attempt to) skills that I don't see in most new OW divers. Most attempt to remain in a Horizontal position, arms in front of them, knees bent with feet above their body position, and they sometimes are trying to frog kick. They generally don't have the buoyancy skills to prevent them from returning to the flutter kick to stay nuteral, but I have been very impressed watching these students.

I don't see these qualities in most other OW students, and I wish more dive shops would promote better form UW as it will go a long way in giving the divers a good start.

Heck, I did some dives with a group that was finishing their *Master Diver* ratings, and they were anything but. Most held their position in the water remaining vertical, and finning to do so....

One thing we all need to remember is that no matter how good the instructor, or class, it really is up to the student/diver to make this happen. No one can force someone to become a better diver if their heart is not in it.