Redesigning AOW

[MikeFerrara]

And how will you determine if the advice you are getting is good advice? Some of the things I read here on ScubaBoard make me cringe ... because I KNOW it's bad, even dangerous, advice. But I know that from experience. The inexperienced diver has no way to know whether or not what someone is saying is valid information.

This is one of the things that scares me so much about what's going on in dive training. People assign a level of credibility or validity to "the agency" that I don't believe the agencies have earned. In any case, most folks don't research anything but rather just assume that these are the experts.

At least with a formal class, the information you are getting has been "vetted" by people who know what they're talking about. The issue isn't that you're getting bad information ... it's that you're generally not getting enough information.

I disagree. The information is incomplete but there is plenty of bad information in dive training. In the best case, it only makes learning the finer points more difficult. Some examples...The way many individual skills are often taught is all hosed up including but not limited to mask clearing, reg recovery ascents, descents and propulsion.

In the worst case it actually becomes dangerous. For this I would refer to the fairly numerous accidents that have occurred on AOW deep dives. Diving deep before you are good at diving shallow can get you hurt. Demonstrably, standards do NOT require a diver to be good at diving shallow before diving deep. What gets them to participate in that deep dive? The agency and the instructor said it's ok. The most glaring example of a trust-me dive that I know of.

Well, first off ... dive instruction isn't mandatory. Anyone can dive. What that OW card really gets you is the ability to rent gear and get tanks filled at commercial shops. Anyone can purchase dive gear and a compressor and dive to their heart's content without ever having taken a class.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Well, access is the main issue and it's what most students are paying for. I've said this before, the quickest way to improve dive training would be to get rid of certifications all together. Then people would only purchase training that they saw real value in. The training would have to stand on it's own merit.

People take an OW class because they need the card to get air and a spot on the boat. Just stand behind the counter in a dive shop for a few hours if you don't believe that. People take AOW so they can get more spots on boats or into a rescue class. Very FEW people give much thought to whether or not the training is any good. For the most part, nobody cares.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Did you not have some curiosity to read up on at least the basics before jumping in.
As a 13 year old I at least read everything I could find about diving before I jumped in and knew very well what the basic dangers were and how to avoid them.

Actually, the person I borrowed the equipment from assured me he would "teach me everything I needed to know" ... I trusted him. Unfortunately, it wasn't until years later ... looking back on it ... that I realized the folly of doing so. Fortunately, it taught me very early on the folly of "trust me" dives.

As Raymond said, it was stupid ... but in the long term, I learned something valuable from the experience ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[b1gcountry]

I wouldn't call it "cheaping out". Some people are just more independant than others. Some are self starters and take responsibility. Others just wait for someone else to tell them what to do and wait for permission to do it.

People in the past have had the skills and knowledge to become very competent divers on their own with relatively non-existent instruction. It is only reasonable to assume that people today could do likewise, but who would those people be? A majority would probably be dangerous and impulsive. The ones who were interested in learning and dedicating the amount of time necessary to hone their skills would probably realize the best way to do this involved some level of basic instruction.

I consider myself mostly self taught. If formal training wasn't available, I could have figured this out on my own. The truth is, though, the OW class I took on Vacation in Hawaii, which was very quick and and cursory, still taught me a great deal. It gave me some experience, and also raised a lot of questions I might not have asked if it weren't for the training. Most of the questions I wound up answering for myself independently later on, but I wouldn't have looked for those answers if it weren't for the original class.

I guess my point is that even crappy instruction gives you a leg up on figuring out everything yourself. Anybody responsible enough to teach themselves SCUBA would also be responsible enough to figure this out.

Tom

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

People take AOW so they can get more spots on boats or into a rescue class. Very FEW people give much thought to whether or not the training is any good. For the most part, nobody cares.

Then how would you explain the number of threads I've read on ScubaBoard over the years complaining that they didn't learn anything in their AOW class?

I think some people care.

That's the issue I have with your posts, generally ... you use terms like "nobody" and "everybody" and "the agencies" ... when in fact, you're really talking about some people, and some (one in particular) agencies.

Not all agencies suck.

Not all instructors suck.

Not all divers suck.

If we can agree on that much, then perhaps the conversation can produce something useful ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MikeFerrara]

But the fact is that the majority of people who take up diving do cheap out. If they didn't, we wouldn't be having this conversation. I've worked for shops that offered a comprehensive OW class ... and charged for it accordingly. The first question most people wanted to know is why we charged $375 for the same card they could get down the street for $125, and in a third the time. After taking the time to explain it to them, the majority opted to sign up down the street. That's why our classes typically had 4 to 6 students, while the guy down the street typically had 20.

I don't think it's the customer who is cheaping out. Their question is "What do I need to do in order to go diving?" "The answer is "Take this class and get certified." You have two classes, one is longer and costs more money yet the shorter and cheaper provides what is needed according to the AGENCY and results in the EXACT SAME CREDENTIAL! For all intents and purposes, they ARE the same product. You wouldn't go to Harvard to get a degree issued by some local unheard of school would you? They are not the same product.

You can blame the agencies all you want, Mike ... but it ain't gonna change a thing. They're selling the product the way they are because that's what most people want to buy.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

What choice is there? How the heck would anyone know what people want when there is essentially only ONE product on the market?

We are dealing with a system that was designed by the agencies and only the agencies with PADI as the clear leader. Who else is there to blame?

 

[RonFrank]

Who's bashing anyone? We're merely discussing how a class could be improved.

Maybe *Bashing* was too strong of term. But it's clear that most feel that the AOW class could be improved.

I'm surprised however that with everything I posted, this was the line that caught your eye? :blinking:

 

[VooDooGasMan]

The Only Thing That Sucks About Diving Is Not Being Able To Go Diving.

Padi Classes Will Go Towards College Credits, Uless Thats Changed.

Diving Does'nt Suck For Me Now Cause In A Hour I'll Be A Couple Hundred Feet Down On A Beatuiful Wall, Narced Up With All That Color That My Light Shines On.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Then how would you explain the number of threads I've read on ScubaBoard over the years complaining that they didn't learn anything in their AOW class?

I think some people care.

Sure but how many posts in those same threads clearly state that AOW was taken for access?

That's the issue I have with your posts, generally ... you use terms like "nobody" and "everybody" and "the agencies" ... when in fact, you're really talking about some people, and some (one in particular) agencies.

I use the term "agencies" in attempt not to only pick on PADI. In fact, all the major recreational agencies are teaching classes that look very much alike. In fact some (probably many) agencies modeled their courses to compete with PADI.

Not all agencies suck.[/QUOTE]

I try not to use terms like "suck". I try to confine comments to actual training standards, how they are applied and the results.

Not all instructors suck.

I agree but I don't see how that's relevant to the conversation.

Not all divers suck.

So?

If we can agree on that much, then perhaps the conversation can produce something useful ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Lets face it, these converstions are mostly just that. While, there are quite a few instructors who have re-thought the way they teach, in part, due to some of these conversations and some divers who have re-thought their approach to training, for the most part, the industry takes no notice. This is just conversation between interested parties.

I get a kick out of it. I get PM's from divers and instructors wanting to go into this stuff further and I get PM's from those shrouded in anonymity just calling me names. For what it's worth, and whether or not you agree, note that I do not speak from a position of anonymity and I take responsibility for what I say. What I don't see, either on the board or in PM's is many people defending the actual content of the standards.

I don't see anyone arguing that divers are performing well. I don't see anyone crediting training standards for the performance of divers. All I see are excuses and rationalizations...ie...divers aren't getting killed, they don't dive enough to be good, it gets more people into diving, the customer is cheap, a bigger market gets us cheaper equipment, it saves the sharks, it supports the local dive shop and keeps the compressor running. LOL people can rationalize it all they want. Personally I don't care how they dive or why. I have no stake in the industry and I don't care about the growth of the industry. When I talk about dive training, I'm going to discuss training standards and the level of dive skill that results from them.

It should be easy for anyone to discuss or debate the subject with me provided that they are prepared to discuss diver skill in relation to training standards. If not they'll have to result to commenting on my attitude or calling me names in a PM. LOL

So Bob, it just isn't required that we agree on anything at all. It's certainly not required that anything "useful" come of it. You present your views as you see fit and I'll do the same. Those are about the only conditions that I care to agree to.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

That's OK Mike ... we just have some fundamental differences in perspective.

I don't think there's any way you or I can "change the way the world dives" ... nor do I think that constantly railing against the agencies is a particularly productive way to get your message out to the people it might be able to help.

I would rather put my efforts into training the divers I can reach personally, and providing some positive, productive input to those who read these threads when they ask questions.

I don't view turning every attempt to say something positive about dive training into yet another bashfest as particularly helpful ... it's been beaten to death, and whatever the merits of your message, the people who might benefit the most from it tend to tune it out after a while.

I think, somewhere on ScubaBoard there needs to be a balance ... I'd like to see one single thread about the merits of training that didn't turn into a two-man bashfest ... something I saw coming as soon as Lynne posted this thread. Wouldn't it have been wonderful to instead have seen a CONSTRUCTIVE conversation about how it could be approached differently. That's what this thread was supposed to be about, after all.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[daniel f aleman]

Fact: if a new diver takes the NAUI Scuba Diver Course, the NAUI Advanced Scuba Diver Course, and NAUI Rescue, he/she will learn enough to dive safely by any reasonable standard. The new diver needs to find an instructor who teaches regularly, and take that instruction in an area where he/she will do most of their diving