Yukon tangent thread

[wrybosome]

Is it common for boats in CA to refuse to allow divers to dive solo? Do they actually look for solo certs, or just go by an assessment of the diver's skill sets and who's a familiar face?

Out of the four boats I've been on out this way, only one attempted to make sure everyone was buddied up with someone.

 

[TheEngineer]

Again, you are wrong. It's SDI that has solo diver certification.

Minor Hijack

I was taught "never hold your breath while on SCUBA" as rule #1. IIRC this is the 2nd time that buddy diving has been called the #1 rule. If this is really a subject for extended discussion, maybe this topic will be split off this thread.


End minor hijack

I was notified of the buddy rule before my first day in the pool for my open water cert, so I consider that #1. Doesn't really matter that much, overall.

 

[ScubaSteve]

The DiveMASTER is called that for a reason. He is, in fact, the dive police on that boat.

Please tell me you are kidding.

 

[Thalassamania]

How can a activity that has a cert for it be "something outside of the accepted standards" there must be some acceptance for it as a realitively safe and doable activity before there can be a cert for it. I'd say the boat op is responsible for passenger safety not diver safety. If the boat sinks and there are no life jackets then yes he's responsible. If a cab driver delivers someone to a dive site and they drown is the cab driver responsible? The problem with diving is the same with most things, the refusal of people to take responsibilty for themsleves. Makes me sick.

Responsibility and authority go hand in hand. If the boat actually made a decision to permit the solo dive then they had the authority to prevent it and, to some degree have some level of responsibility for the outcome. If, on the other hand, the boat took no part in the decision process, they just pulled up to the "bus stop" and opened the gate ... then the solo dive question really does not come into play.

However, leaving with a diver still in the water unaccounted for is inexcusable and the boat will find that an impossible one to explain away. This will increase the boat's apparent responsibility for the accident, even if it shouldn't.

:lookaround:

Another question for you experienced folks . . . I've heard very experienced people on this board discuss that they have made an emergency ascent from 100 fsw. Is that ability within the capabilities of a less experienced diver, one with less than five hundred dives, for example? I realized I am asking for speculation, here . . .

An ESE of 100 feet is really quite easy, easier than swimming 100 feet horizontal underwater (which is just just a length and third of a standard high school pool). In the science community, up through the 1980s, divers had to perform an ESE from the depth of their certification (30, 60, 100, 130, 150, 190) before receiving it. No one was ever hurt doing this and, frankly, I think it was a good idea. This was stopped after a spate of free ascent training accidents in the recreational community, that I'd lay at the door of students with poor water skills and inadequate training combined with an exercise that does have some real potential for injury associated with it.

...

Sorry but your outlook on solo diving is laughable. You are no different than the over zealous "journalist" that claims that the diver died because there was nothing in his oxygen tank. Solo diving does NOT kill. Poor choices kill. Medical conditions kill. Solo diving does NOT kill. No ifs, ands or :mooner:'s.

Solo diving does not, in and of itself, cause accidents or kill ... BUT it definitely reduces a diver's options and can turn a "nothing incident" into a fatality. We don't know what happened here, but it appears that this diver ran out of air. A buddy might have prevented that, or been able to supply emergency gas to him.

Part of the issue here has to do with the quality of the buddy. Many of the people whom I know who dive solo do so because they want to dive, they do not have a pool of buddies to draw from and the experiences that they've had with insta-buddies have been less than favorable. There are more (and I think better) ways to solve this problem than a redundant gas supply and an SDI Solo card.

If the diver presented themselves as a qualified and trained solo diver and if the Humbolt has a policy to allow solo diving, then they did nothing wrong IMO. I am not saying either of these is true or fact because I simply do not know, but your blind hatred for solo diving is ridiculous.

In general I agree with you that: if the diver presented themselves as a qualified and trained solo diver, and if the Humbolt has a policy to allow solo diving, then they did nothing wrong. However ... if the Humbolt had a policy to permit solo diving (something that that is strongly discouraged by all but one of the training agencies), they should have noticed (assumption here) that this chap was ill equipped to be solo diving since he was not carrying a fully redundant gas supply.

Diving with a buddy is not Rule #1. You are failing your students if it is.

#1, #2, #3 ... though you are correct, that's a quibble.

One of my commercial divers had an equipment malfunction and had to perform a cesa from 32 meters. I would not suggest that it is something Anyone of any experience level or certification should feel that they are perfectly capable of doing. I hope to never be in that position. Short of a total system failure, there is no real reason for anyone to run out of air. If you plan properly, obey good diving rules, and remain aware, you will not "run out of air."

Absolutely. While I have made free ascents in that range, but only as "practice," there is no real reason, in this day and age, to have to do so if you are properly trained and equipped ... either as a buddy diver (my preference) or a solo diver. But solo diving with trained and equipped as a buddy diver ... that's asking for trouble.

You know, reading this thread, I'm struck by the number of people who think that the boat leaving played a major role in the fatality. If, in fact, something happened to this gentleman under the water (as it sounds) and he did not make it to the surface (which seems likely), then even had they waited at the site for him to surface, and eventually figured out he wasn't going to, by the time anyone went down to look for him, it would have been too late.

Boats leaving are a problem for someone on the surface, or who comes to the surface and discovers he's drifting with no way home. But a boat remaining at the site is almost never of any significant use to a person who is in trouble UNDER the water. The only way I can imagine in which the boat leaving was relevant here was if the guy did a CESA, made it to the surface and was unable to establish positive buoyancy, AND somebody saw this AND got in the water AND reached him before he sank again. Lots of ifs.

I agree with Lynne, but (I predict) that the Boat's poor performance in this instance is going to see them hung out to dry regardless.

Is it possible that he lost consciousness, lost his regulator and it free flowed to empty his tank?

Yes.

Having read through all of your rants, there is one thing I have decided - I don't want to dive with YOU.

I'd be happy to dive with Engineer.

I dive solo in areas I am comfortable diving solo - I don't dive solo in areas I am not familiar. Too many times I have been 'hindered' with insta-buddies - but you know what - I did it to keep the less-experienced person comfortable. Did they dive with me to 'avoid becoming dead' - no - they dove with me because they felt more comfortable.

I guess I've never felt that another diver was a "hindrance." I have, on occasion, had to make a different dive than the one I had originally considered, but I had fun anyway ... and I like the company.

I dive with other people because I enjoy sharing the experiences of the dive. Same reason I take video.

I really feel like (my impression after reading all of your posts) you live in a world where everything is out to make your life difficult. I'm sorry that you feel that way.

Let's think for a moment - anytime you dive with students or very new divers, what is their ability level to truly assist you in an emergency? I would posit very low given my own experience. (22+ years of diving). So, you are essentially solo in these instances.

When I dive with my very new divers I know that they are fully capable of rescuing me from the bottom, getting me to the surface and transporting me as efficiently and effectively as possible to the boat or shore. If the very new divers that you are associated with can not do so, I submit that is a problem with, "the system" and needs to be solved at the agency level. I agree with you that if you are teaching a class, by yourself, then you are likely in worse shape, from a risk to life and limb standpoint, than you would be diving solo. But if you were diving solo would you be in such benign conditions, so shallow and so close to shore? Likely not. Even so, I always try to teach with another instructor ... if for no other reason that to model good buddy practices for my students.

You mentioned that you had to rescue someone who could not manage their pony - that's an issue for that ONE person - yet you wanted to overgeneralize that to the world of pony bottle users (I am taking a little license here based on your other wild generalizations).

Please, take a moment, sit back, let's see what really comes out of this incident.

Sure, it is POSSIBLE that this guy ran out of air - If this person was buddied with an inexperienced diver, then perhaps he would have been OK - perhaps there would be two dead divers.

I thought that all certified divers are supposed to have mastered air sharing with their auxiliary second stage. Is this not so?

YOU don't know what would have happened. It's also POSSIBLE this guy had a heart attack - same issues with a buddy - again, we weren't there, we don't know. This is all speculation - yet you seem hell-bent-for-leather on pushing your own agenda onto the board - PLEASE - let's not do that.

If that were the case, and he'd had a buddy, at least we'd know what had happened and he would have had some chance, however small, of being rescued.

Let's have some USEFUL discourse and try to see if we can learn anything from this tragedy. Trying to change the world to your way of thinking simply is not going to work.

Clearly, "it's not going to work," until the general diving public demands more out of the agencies than they do currently. But I think that useful discourse involves speculation and even a bit of outrage at the current situation.

As for the point of the boat leaving a diver down at the site - I find this 100% inexcusable. I also agree that whether or not this had anything to do with the cause of death (which it likely did not) it smacks to me of gross negligence. I simply find it horrifying that this occurred. This dive OP up until Saturday was, in my opinion, one of the better ones around. This incident brings them WAY down in my world. Why? Not because someone died, but because they departed (apparently) when the person was still down.

The boat's in a heap of trouble, no doubt, even if it shouldn't be.

 

[ZenDiver.3D]

I have witnessed emergency ascents and provided rescue to divers on the surface who have had the unfortunate experience of doing this. Most of them were in an extreme panic by the time they were on the surface.

The one that I rescued who was out of air kept trying to auto inflate his BC which of course did not work since he was out of air. His mind was not clear enough to think about a manual inflation. He was seriously struggling to stay on the surface when I got to him. I had a body board with me and pushed it to him so that he could use it for flotation and catch his breath while I manually inflated his BC for him.

If something like this happened in this case he could have drowned on the surface after struggling and then sank back down to the bottom. If he had a computer it will show this. If there was a dive boat on the dive site to serve as rescue or witness they would also be able to attest to this. But as was already established, the boat left the diver behind and created an unexcusable tragedy.

In my experiences, I can say that I have witnessed 4. Respectively from these depths- 12 meters, 18 meters, 23 meters, and 32 meters. In each of them, the diver was thinking and very aware. They were not panicked and quite capably got to the boat.
I cannot speak to any other ascents of this nature, as I was not at them.

I cannot say what happened in this case. I think it more likely that the diver had a heart attack at depth. Or a similar incident to Denisegg. Cardiac or respiratory emergencies are simply what they are, and if the diver was solo, then he understood that in such an instance, he would likely be beyond help.

I will not place blame 100% on the dive boat. You can ride that horse all you want, but it won't work. This man had Some event happen to empty his tank and cause him to be fully geared with camera(?) at the bottom. The boat certainly isn't at fault for that. They will be at fault for leaving a diver in the water. I just don't have enough information to attribute his death to them too, at this point. And neither do any of us. As an extra edit, however, I would Never excuse a boat leaving a diver. I have seen where a diver emergency meant the boat had to run, leaving divers there, but we cover that in our briefing and safety plan with our divers. They know what to do if they surface to no boat. We also would already have someone running over to grab them.

 

[Orlando Eric]

How long, O Lord? How long? How long must we endure the fallacies of tank counts and head counts before we realize that the only reliable way to assure everyone's on board is to do a roll call, name by name, with no one answering for anyone else???
Rick

I did not read the rest of this thread yet but... For the first three years of my current occupation I was a professional headcounter. I counted 160 people (1600 total in facility +/-) every hour and three times a day conducted a formal headcount. As any other cage kicker (turn key, screw, co, etc) can tell you. Headcounts are easy to screw up. A formal headcount is the only accurate count. Call a name, see a response check it off.

It also calls for the countees to be paying attention so Susie does not Answer for Joey. Unfortunatley we can not threaten the divers with lockdown / loss of gain time for screwing up the dive boat roll call.

 

[divemaster dave]

1. A diver can do a CESA from 100 feet.

And if not done correctly he can suffer an AGE from about 10 feet.

2. There is no need to resort to air in the BCD if air is needed. The diver's tank is not empty. It simply does not have enough air to provide it at the diver's depth. As the diver ascends and ambient pressure lessens, the tank will provide air.

If he had a free flow on the bottom it would drain him to zero. A zero PSI on the bottom is zero PSI on the surface. Ascending 4 ATM does not increase zero to anything above zero. If he did surface with minimal pressure due to the ATM change it could possibly be enough for a few panic breaths to avoid the AGE but probably not inflating his BCD and give him no air on the surface. He would have to have have the mindset to switch to his snorkel and then have the composure to inflate his BCD. I haven't sen many photogs use snorkels due to them getting in the way.

 

[ScubaSteve]

I just don't have enough information to attribute his death to them too, at this point. And neither do any of us.

This has never stopped most people from running amock without information....they are after all, the

 

[divemaster dave]

Cardiac or respiratory emergencies are simply what they are, and if the diver was solo, then he understood that in such an instance, he would likely be beyond help.

Probably the reason most commercial boats carry AEDs. They think about this type of accident and prepare to perform a rescue. I know that the other 2 dive boats in San Diego do. Maybe they plan ahead a little more.

The boat certainly isn't at fault for that. They will be at fault for leaving a diver in the water. I just don't have enough information to attribute his death to them too, at this point. And neither do any of us.

They allowed the solo dive with started the chain of events. Then left the scene which started the crime.

I know photogs like to solo dive but most that I know take a buddy or model as they like to call it for support and to get in the pictures.

 

[divemaster dave]

This man had Some event happen to empty his tank and cause him to be fully geared with camera(?) at the bottom. The boat certainly isn't at fault for that. They will be at fault for leaving a diver in the water.

You have never seen a diver struggle at the surface and need rescue??? Forget to drop a weight pouch? Have a new BC or be a new diver and not be able to inflate his BC correctly? In panic it was proven and shown in my military training that fine motor skills are the first to go when your adrenaline starts pumping. Small BCD buttons then feel like they aren't even there and become useless and near impossible to operate. Same thing happens in cold water. Since the water temp is 52F on the bottom his manual dexterity could have been almost gone.

So your speculation is incomplete. He could have sank back to the bottom. His camera on a leash as some divers do. And settled in the sand where he laid for over an hour while the boat was at another dive site.