Yukon tangent thread

[tracydr]

The decision to dive alone on a deep dive and take photos was the diver's, not the boat's. This mentality in the United State's of placing blame, which then leads to the lawsuit is disgusting!

 

[jridg]

The primary reason people don't dive alone is to avoid becoming dead.

Having read through all of your rants, there is one thing I have decided - I don't want to dive with YOU.

I dive solo in areas I am comfortable diving solo - I don't dive solo in areas I am not familiar. Too many times I have been 'hindered' with insta-buddies - but you know what - I did it to keep the less-experienced person comfortable. Did they dive with me to 'avoid becoming dead' - no - they dove with me because they felt more comfortable.

I dive with other people because I enjoy sharing the experiences of the dive. Same reason I take video.

I really feel like (my impression after reading all of your posts) you live in a world where everything is out to make your life difficult. I'm sorry that you feel that way.

Let's think for a moment - anytime you dive with students or very new divers, what is their ability level to truly assist you in an emergency? I would posit very low given my own experience. (22+ years of diving). So, you are essentially solo in these instances.

You mentioned that you had to rescue someone who could not manage their pony - that's an issue for that ONE person - yet you wanted to overgeneralize that to the world of pony bottle users (I am taking a little license here based on your other wild generalizations).

Please, take a moment, sit back, let's see what really comes out of this incident.

Sure, it is POSSIBLE that this guy ran out of air - If this person was buddied with an inexperienced diver, then perhaps he would have been OK - perhaps there would be two dead divers. YOU don't know what would have happened. It's also POSSIBLE this guy had a heart attack - same issues with a buddy - again, we weren't there, we don't know. This is all speculation - yet you seem hell-bent-for-leather on pushing your own agenda onto the board - PLEASE - let's not do that.

Let's have some USEFUL discourse and try to see if we can learn anything from this tragedy. Trying to change the world to your way of thinking simply is not going to work.

 

[jridg]

As for the point of the boat leaving a diver down at the site - I find this 100% inexcusable. I also agree that whether or not this had anything to do with the cause of death (which it likely did not) it smacks to me of gross negligence. I simply find it horrifying that this occurred. This dive OP up until Saturday was, in my opinion, one of the better ones around. This incident brings them WAY down in my world. Why? Not because someone died, but because they departed (apparently) when the person was still down.

 

[divemaster dave]

Is it possible that he lost consciousness, lost his regulator and it free flowed to empty his tank?

Absolutely, happens quite frequently.

 

[boulderjohn]

I agree, TSandM, the boat's leaving seems a non sequitur to this incident.

Speculation:

So, if the diver did lose track of gas supply and went OOG, for whatever reason, his recourse would be an emergency swim-up ascent from 100fsw depth . . . assuming what air he had in his BC would help more as the volume increased as he ascended . . . He might have had the availability of sucking air from the BC on the way -- one would assume he would dump his weights. All this if he kept calm, or at least held panic at bay, through the emergency.

1. A diver can do a CESA from 100 feet.
2. There is no need to resort to air in the BCD if air is needed. The diver's tank is not empty. It simply does not have enough air to provide it at the diver's depth. As the diver ascends and ambient pressure lessens, the tank will provide air.
3. In an absolute worst case scenario, a diver with absolutely no air in the lungs or tank should have enough oxygen in the bloodstream to get to the surface from that depth.
4. A diver in trouble as serious as #3 should be able do a buoyant ascent and reach the surface even if unconscious by the time the surface is reached.

 

[mdb]

Those who are bashing solo diving might take a moment and reflect. We are diving solo everytime we dive. Some "buddies/team divers" will panic in a real world moment. Other divers may not even notice, or cannot/will not help. Of course there are many incidents where a diver went to the aid of another and helped.

I have been diving with a solo mindset for almost 38 years. Except with very trusted friends, I feel much safer diving solo.

I hope we will all learn something here, but, IMO, it will not be not to dive solo.

 

[divemaster dave]

You know, reading this thread, I'm struck by the number of people who think that the boat leaving played a major role in the fatality. If, in fact, something happened to this gentleman under the water (as it sounds) and he did not make it to the surface (which seems likely), then even had they waited at the site for him to surface, and eventually figured out he wasn't going to, by the time anyone went down to look for him, it would have been too late.

Boats leaving are a problem for someone on the surface, or who comes to the surface and discovers he's drifting with no way home. But a boat remaining at the site is almost never of any significant use to a person who is in trouble UNDER the water. The only way I can imagine in which the boat leaving was relevant here was if the guy did a CESA, made it to the surface and was unable to establish positive buoyancy, AND somebody saw this AND got in the water AND reached him before he sank again. Lots of ifs.

Of course the boat played 100% in the role of this fatality. They may not have been able to stop the initial accident but the death is on the Humboldt and that still could have been prevented. Lets say they were watching the bubbles for an overdue diver as is done by most of the boats in San Diego. Or even put another diver in the water to chase his bubbles to see why he is overdue like I have seen done by some of the boats in San Diego. They did none of this. Instead they left the dive site. Lets say they were watching bubbles and didn't have anyone to put in the water to assist but saw his bubbles abruptly stop and then never resume. I would think rescue attempts would begin immediately if not by them perhaps they could have called the Lifeguards an hour before they did when they actually initiated the MAYDAY. But again there was no boat there watching because they left, the diver laid on the bottom for over an hour.

I have been on the Humboldt once. Their safety procedures seemed lax and too laid back. Everything they seemed to do seemed like a joke and a party like they were not taking their jobs seriously. I won't be headed out with them to support their legal fund.

Lets put this in simpler terms. Lets say you go to the beach for a swim. You tell the lifeguard you are headed out and will be back in 30 minutes. Although he is not out there swimming with you he is still supposed to offer you some sort of safety. So then lets say the lifeguard forgets about you and that you went for a swim and you have been gone more than 30 minutes. Lets say he then takes off to lunch and comes back an hour later and you still haven' returned. You chances of survival if you had needed help, if you had some sort of accident just went down the tubes.

So yes the boat is at fault. Even if his chances of getting to the surface with help or being revived with CPR were 1,000,000 to 1. There was a chance and that was denied to him because there was no boat on the surface. This is gross negligence. And now a family has been destroyed. I do not know the diver but Robert most likely had parents, possibly siblings, maybe a wife or girlfriend or how about kids. He was also a veteran going to school on the GI bill. It is a tragedy that this also happened on 911, for which Robert served to protect our country and freedoms. Everyone here needs to think about that. The investigation and lawsuits will take years to complete.

 

[cruiser]

It defies reason to think he simultaneously ran out of air AND had a heart attack at the same time.

Yes, it defies reason and would be one heck of a coincidence. Don't think it happened that way.

However, isn't it possible that he had a heart attack or some other physical impairment (stroke?) with gas still in his cylinder, and once he became incapacitated on the sea floor, proceeded to breathe the remainder of his tank dry? This seems more plausible than he just sucked his tank dry and then said, "Oh crap!"

 

[divemaster dave]

1. A diver can do a CESA from 100 feet.
2. There is no need to resort to air in the BCD if air is needed. The diver's tank is not empty. It simply does not have enough air to provide it at the diver's depth. As the diver ascends and ambient pressure lessens, the tank will provide air.
3. In an absolute worst case scenario, a diver with absolutely no air in the lungs or tank should have enough oxygen in the bloodstream to get to the surface from that depth.
4. A diver in trouble as serious as #3 should be able do a buoyant ascent and reach the surface even if unconscious by the time the surface is reached.

I have witnessed emergency ascents and provided rescue to divers on the surface who have had the unfortunate experience of doing this. Most of them were in an extreme panic by the time they were on the surface.

The one that I rescued who was out of air kept trying to auto inflate his BC which of course did not work since he was out of air. His mind was not clear enough to think about a manual inflation. He was seriously struggling to stay on the surface when I got to him. I had a body board with me and pushed it to him so that he could use it for flotation and catch his breath while I manually inflated his BC for him.

If something like this happened in this case he could have drowned on the surface after struggling and then sank back down to the bottom. If he had a computer it will show this. If there was a dive boat on the dive site to serve as rescue or witness they would also be able to attest to this. But as was already established, the boat left the diver behind and created an unexcusable tragedy.

 

[divemaster dave]

proceeded to breathe the remainder of his tank dry? This seems more plausible than he just sucked his tank dry

Nearly impossible. Unless he was using some sort of strap to hold the reg in his mouth as soon as he went unconscious the reg would come out of his mouth. I have witnessed and heard many stories about divers being found like this.