Yukon tangent thread

[TheEngineer]

Wanna back that up with some hard facts???? "Many"????? Both PADI and NAUI still mandate a 200-yard swim test for the basic class. There are also floating, drownproofing, and other watermanship skills. Yes, some people barely get by. Yes, some people who get certified are not great in the water. But the statement "Many certifiied divers today literally cannot swim" simplies defies credulity.

It can defy credulity all it wants, but it is a fact. I've seen it numerous times and have been seeing it more and more recently. I know because I get to help retrain many of these people afterward. Why would I be pulling PADI certified ADVANCED divers out of a pool after less than a 25yd length because they are clearly in distress? Apparently you are justifying this inability to swim by reclassifying it as people "barely getting by" or being "not great in the water". I call a guy that can't cover one length of the pool without drowning a person that can't swim.

Just out of curiosity, which page of the most recent NAUI S&P states the 200yd requirement?

Again, wanna back up your unsubstantiated opinion with some facts? I've been teaching dving for 30 years. I know most of the shops in Los Angeles (30+) and many of the instructors so I think I've got a good picture of the range of teaching skills in our area. I personally supervise over 500 divers a year on our local charter boats plus I see plenty more when I'm at the Avalon Underwater Park as well as when I travel abroad on the 4-6 foreign trips I lead each year.

I can substantiate it, once again, with personal observation. This problem has ballooned over the last few years. I know quite a few instructors myself and they will all tell you the same thing: This does happen, and this is happening more often now than ever. Blame the economy if you want. No one wants to turn away a paying customer these days, so maybe that is the incentive for overlooking this requirement. After all, if they can get around with a flotation device and fins, what difference does swimming make?

Your allegation is not only false, it is NOT happening "every single day" and it is NOT "becoming more common." And if you want to tell us that you know a shop or instructor that's doing exactly what you allege, then I'm going to suggest that you have a moral obligation to turn them in to their certifying agency for standards violations. NO ONE wants bad instructors to continue to teach.

If I knew which shops were turning these people out, I would report them. However, you are doing exactly what they are doing. You are denying a problem that obviously exists and are trying to shout down anyone that brings it to light. That is your choice, but it doesn't change reality, no matter how much it bothers you to hear it.

If you want to develop any modicum of credibility here, stick with the facts, not some wild accusations. I note from your profile that you've checked off "100-199 logged dives" as your experience level. While that's nice, I might suggest it hardly gives you the breadth of experience to make the claims you're making.

Right. 100-199 logged dives does not include the hundreds more teaching and training dives and hours that I have participated in that did not meet the 15' for 20min requirement to be a logged dive. Unlike some people, I don't consider every instance of breathing underwater to be a "dive" just to run up some imaginary number.

I'm going to sound like a broken record but . . . wanna substantiate that with some facts?

Ken, believe it or not, I do know you and I do know many of the people you know. I may be new to this board, but I didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday. All of them will corroborate the fact that photographers are notorious for forgetting to adhere to basic safety rules in the interest of getting a good picture. They are typically (not always) the worst buddies on the planet, unless you consider their camera to be their buddy. You can deny this as well, but all it does is run your credibility down a little further, which is unfortunate. I've always considered you a fairly well informed and knowledgeable person.

Finally . . . something about the accident that this thread is about.

Whatever happened to DIVER RESPONSIBILITY?

If this guy got hurt or killed diving off the beach on his own, then he would be the only responsible party. The fact is, he was diving off a boat. That boat allowed him to do what he did. As a result, they bear some responsibility for this accident. I am not implying that they held him down till he drowned, but letting him dive 100' underwater with no buddy is stupid, no if, ands or buts, and you know it.

Here are some things to think about:

1. Once any diver leaves a boat, there's nothing that anyone on the surface can do to control that dive/diver.

True. But they had complete control over him BEFORE he left the boat. If it turns out he started the dive with a buddy, got separated, and died, then we will have a completely different situation. As it stands, that didn't happen.

2. This particular diver apparently chose to dive solo (which I personally don't have a problem with - not for everyone though).

Yes he did. And they allowed it.

3. This diver knew he was diving on a wreck.

Yes he did. And so did they.

4. This diver chose to take a camera with him.

Yes he did. And they knew he was dividing his attention by having that camera.

5. This diver apparently (asusming the OOA info is correct) failed to monitor his air supply.

Maybe. It's possible something catastrophic happened. A blown O-ring, flooded BC or other malfunction could also have occurred that he was not prepared to deal with.

6. An unconscious diver can survive underwater without air/oxygen for 4-6 minutes before irreversible brain death sets in.
7. Ignoring whether or not the boat left the site, had a roll-call been done right then and there when they thought the last diver was up, and he was discovered missing at that point, and a diver was sent down to look for him, by the time this (A) would have been discovered, (B) a diver dispatched, and (C) victim found and brought to the surface from 100 feet, (D) that 4-6 minute window would have long ago closed.

No argument here. But it sure doesn't help their argument that they were operating safely if they did leave him behind.

You're right in stating that this was an avoidable accident. But it was up to the diver, not the boat, to do the avoiding. And the solution (again assuming the OOA story is correct and the only factor) is pretty simple:

WATCH YOUR AIR AT ALL TIMES
& SURFACE WITH AT LEAST 300-500psi.

End of rant (for now).

- Ken

You forgot to mention diving with a buddy. That is taught as rule #1, even before you are taught to read your pressure gauge. At least it was when I was taught.

 

[TheEngineer]

Why does the Humbolt need to explain why they let a solo diver take photos on a deep dive?

Because the man died. Or did you miss that part?

 

[TheEngineer]

How can a activity that has a cert for it be "something outside of the accepted standards" there must be some acceptance for it as a realitively safe and doable activity before there can be a cert for it. I'd say the boat op is responsible for passenger safety not diver safety. If the boat sinks and there are no life jackets then yes he's responsible. If a cab driver delivers someone to a dive site and they drown is the cab driver responsible? The problem with diving is the same with most things, the refusal of people to take responsibilty for themsleves. Makes me sick.

IIRC, the only agency that certifies solo diving is SSI. Was this man carrying an SSI solo diver certification? And was he carrying the proper gear? Even if the answer was yes to both of those, the boat STILL could tell him no.

 

[Thalassamania]

There is an organization that "certifies" air dives to 300 feet. Does that make that an acceptable practice?

 

[ZenDiver.3D]

It can defy credulity all it wants, but it is a fact. I've seen it numerous times and have been seeing it more and more recently. I know because I get to help retrain many of these people afterward. Why would I be pulling PADI certified ADVANCED divers out of a pool after less than a 25yd length because they are clearly in distress? Apparently you are justifying this inability to swim by reclassifying it as people "barely getting by" or being "not great in the water". I call a guy that can't cover one length of the pool without drowning a person that can't swim.
So your three years of certification from basic to Master(is that master scuba diver or divemaster (the two are very different), makes you such an authority and able to apply such blanket statements of condemnation. Not.

I can substantiate it, once again, with personal observation. This problem has ballooned over the last few years.You've only been diving a few years. How would you know how it has ballooned? I know quite a few instructors myself and they will all tell you the same thing: This does happen, and this is happening more often now than ever. You need to meet more people. Blame the economy if you want. No one wants to turn away a paying customer these days, so maybe that is the incentive for overlooking this requirement. After all, if they can get around with a flotation device and fins, what difference does swimming make?



If I knew which shops were turning these people out, I would report them. However, you are doing exactly what they are doing. You are denying a problem that obviously exists and are trying to shout down anyone that brings it to light. That is your choice, but it doesn't change reality, no matter how much it bothers you to hear it.You saying this is a problem certainly doesn't make it so.



Right. 100-199 logged dives does not include the hundreds more teaching and training dives and hours that I have participated in that did not meet the 15' for 20min requirement to be a logged dive. Unlike some people, I don't consider every instance of breathing underwater to be a "dive" just to run up some imaginary number.
Are you an instructor or AI? I can't tell that form your page. It jsut says Master, which is not actually a designation.

If this guy got hurt or killed diving off the beach on his own, then he would be the only responsible party. The fact is, he was diving off a boat. That boat allowed him to do what he did. As a result, they bear some responsibility for this accident. I am not implying that they held him down till he drowned, but letting him dive 100' underwater with no buddy is stupid, no if, ands or buts, and you know it.
No they absolutely do not.


True. But they had complete control over him BEFORE he left the boat. If it turns out he started the dive with a buddy, got separated, and died, then we will have a completely different situation. As it stands, that didn't happen.
No we don't. He make a big boy choice to dive. They did not. They are not the dive police and had no right, if he had proof of training to deny his choices. Unless they had a policy for no solo diving on their boat. I understand that is not the case.


Yes he did. And they allowed it.Why are you so detemined to make this the boat's fault? You seem to have an axe to grind.

Yes he did. And they knew he was dividing his attention by having that camera.
Again, so what? That is his right.


You forgot to mention diving with a buddy. That is taught as rule #1, even before you are taught to read your pressure gauge. At least it was when I was taught.

IIRC, the only agency that certifies solo diving is SSI. Was this man carrying an SSI solo diver certification? And was he carrying the proper gear? Even if the answer was yes to both of those, the boat STILL could tell him no.

Again, you are wrong. It's SDI that has solo diver certification.

 

[commanderscuba]

BOTTOM LINE Comanderscuba if you do not want to die while using a self contained breathing apparatus, do not dive.

Divings Dangerous whether with a buddy or solo. Ok now this is reality Divers die everyday, most on this board want to learn from these deaths to avoid death and add knowledge so not to become another DEAD DIVER.

Above you talk about how folks on this board "want to learn from these deaths to avoid death and add knowledge so not to become another DEAD DIVER". Well for starters, in my opinion, diving with a Dive Buddy is a great way to improve your safety and chances of survival.

This fella has dove solo for 60 years, wake up commanderscuba you are a new brainwashed diver, if you want to buddy dive great, yet do not put out that other ways of diving are more dangerous than others.

BOTTOM LINE DIVINGS DANGEROUS

Seriously? First of all, I'm not a new diver. I was PADI certified when I was 11 (one year before you could receive your jr open water back then). The instructor had to hold my papers and submit them on my birthday and then mail me the C-card.

Then in college I took university classes taught by the then Chairman of the Board of NAUI (2003/2004). Through that individual, I earned my Advanced, Scientific, Rescue, Master and Assistance Instructor certifications. These were not weekend courses either. Semester long courses which provided months of instruction and repetitive training.

And to make it absolutely clear, the then Chairman of the Board of NAUI (my instructor), an individual whose expertise and experience in Scuba Diving would be difficult to top by anyone, made it absolutely clear to me and everyone in our classes over multiple semesters that you should NEVER dive without a buddy.

I remember one day at La Jolla Shores when I was getting ready to take a pair of open water course divers on a guided tour (part of our assistant instructor certification) I met a guy named Stan who was all geared up and heading out to find the Cabazon Cruzer (a small ski boat that sat in about 135 fsw at the time). He had no buddy. After Stan walked down to the water and out of ears reach, I asked my instructor (referenced above) what he felt about this guy going down to the Cabazon Cruzer alone (a site I had dove maybe 6 times up to that point). The instructor said he didn't agree with diving solo. He admitted some people do dive solo and though they generally take precautions such as bringing extra air and/or fully redundant systems with them, there are many situations that can arise where having a competent dive buddy with you would greatly increase your odds of surviving.

So if you're one of those Divers out there that read this forum looking for ways to (in the words of VooDooGasMan) "learn from these deaths to avoid death and add knowledge so not to become another DEAD DIVER", then you might consider always diving with a dive buddy. While that alone doesn't guarantee survival, in my opinion and in the opinion of a well respected professional in the Dive Industry (at least how he expressed it to me back in 2003/2004) it does increase your odds. Just like wearing a seat belt won't always save your life, it improves your odds of survival in the event of a car accident. While there are several things one can do to improve their safety while diving solo, in my opinion there are very realistic scenarios that can and do arise where having a buddy could be your only hope of survival.

Sure the industry has updated what it considers acceptable diving guidelines to include solo diving, but in my opinion there are many in the industry on a very high level that think solo diving should always be avoided on a recreational level. And to be clear for VooDooGasMan who assumes I am a "new brainwashed diver" (VooDooGasMan's words), I dive every chance I get. I consider myself quite an experienced diver. Not because of my certifications which are unimpressive compared to others, but because of the amount of diving I've done and the consistent frequency of which I do it. I do consider myself lucky to have received formal dive instruction and training from an industry icon and I do believe that his instruction and approach to diving has helped me to become a safe diver. So if I am "brainwashed", then so be it. My goal is to enjoy myself, learn about the underwater environment I’m in and stay alive. I'd rather not rely solely on life support equipment underwater and instead choose to have a competent dive buddy as well.

In my opinion and I believe in the opinion of others, diving with a competent buddy is safer than diving solo. VooDooGasMan, from your inflamatory post towards me, it would appear your opinion differs. We'll have to wait for the facts to come out on why this diver on the Yukon died but I cannot think of a single realistic scenario where having a dive buddy would not have increased his chances of survival. Even if someone had a massive heart attack at 100 fsw, having a competent dive buddy could increase their chance of survival.

I'm scheduled to dive the Yukon this coming weekend. And for the record, I will be diving with a competent buddy who understands the importance of staying together and looking out for one another. I don't know if having a competent dive buddy would have benefited the unfortunate diver that passed away this weekend, but again, I cannot think of one reason where it wouldn't have increased his odds of survival. If anyone can constructively think of a potentially deadly diving scenario where having a buddy would not increase the odds of survival, I'd be interested to hear it.

 

[divemaster dave]

I really can't believe all of the stuff I am reading here. Speculation at this point is moot. There is ONLY one thing that matters here, the dive boat left the dive site, left the scene of an accident and abandoned the diver. One of the first news reports listed in this thread said that they left and went to the other dive site, which after talking to local friends was the Ruby E approximately 2 miles away and then they returned later to the Yukon after figuring out the diver was missing. About an hour had elapsed by this time. Unfortunately the diver had no chance of rescue. If the Humboldt had realized before they left that the diver was overdue emergency responders could have been activated much earlier and provided support and he could have had a fighting chance. But now the great shame is that we will never know. In the spirit of speculation in this thread what if he had surfaced conscious in panic or even unconscious, there was no one there to even offer a surface rescue. Any attorney will be all over this for criminal neglect.

ANY chance that the diver had was thrown away when the Humboldt abandoned him. It is not a top notch OP if they just happen to forget a roll call with 14 people on board. Small mistakes get people killed as with what happened here. And it shouldn't take someone dying to serve as a wake up call for them to change their procedures. That really minimizes the meaning of life and disgusts me. Other divers in this thread listed the Humboldt's safety procedures as lax and that is a shame and criminal. You can only get away with being lazy for so long.

It was the Captain and the DM's responsibility to make sure everyone was kept safe within accepted diving regs and policies or at least offered a chance at rescue. Yes there is no scuba police but when diving off a boat there are rules in order to keep everyone safe. And Captains and DM's must enforce safe boat diving rules. When a dive boat leaves a diver behind all chance of rescue is gone as the diver is really a solo diver at that point being left 2 miles out at sea by himself.

If the USCG allows them to operate in the future you are a brave soul for heading out with them. Instead of just having one buddy I'd bring a few, just in case the DM can't get the count right that day. I indeed expect several lawsuits from the family as well as criminal charges, possibly even involuntary manslaughter.

Wasn't Captain Ryan on the news last year publicly and disrespectfully in the midst of a death bashing another local dive OP for something very similar? That company went out of business. It's a real shame and a loss for everyone in the community.

DM Dave

 

[ZenDiver.3D]

I really can't believe all of the stuff I am reading here. Speculation at this point is moot. There is ONLY one thing that matters here, the dive boat left the dive site, left the scene of an accident and abandoned the diver. One of the first news reports listed in this thread said that they left and went to the other dive site, which after talking to local friends was the Ruby E approximately 2 miles away and then they returned later to the Yukon after figuring out the diver was missing. About an hour had elapsed by this time. Unfortunately the diver had no chance of rescue. If the Humboldt had realized before they left that the diver was overdue emergency responders could have been activated much earlier and provided support and he could have had a fighting chance. But now the great shame is that we will never know. In the spirit of speculation in this thread what if he had surfaced conscious in panic or even unconscious, there was no one there to even offer a surface rescue. Any attorney will be all over this for criminal neglect.

ANY chance that the diver had was thrown away when the Humboldt abandoned him. It is not a top notch OP if they just happen to forget a roll call with 14 people on board. Small mistakes get people killed as with what happened here. And it shouldn't take someone dying to serve as a wake up call for them to change their procedures. That really minimizes the meaning of life and disgusts me. Other divers in this thread listed the Humboldt's safety procedures as lax and that is a shame and criminal. You can only get away with being lazy for so long.

It was the Captain and the DM's responsibility to make sure everyone was kept safe within accepted diving regs and policies or at least offered a chance at rescue. Yes there is no scuba police but when diving off a boat there are rules in order to keep everyone safe. And Captains and DM's must enforce safe boat diving rules. When a dive boat leaves a diver behind all chance of rescue is gone as the diver is really a solo diver at that point being left 2 miles out at sea by himself.

If the USCG allows them to operate in the future you are a brave soul for heading out with them. Instead of just having one buddy I'd bring a few, just in case the DM can't get the count right that day. I indeed expect several lawsuits from the family as well as criminal charges, possibly even involuntary manslaughter.

Wasn't Captain Ryan on the news last year publicly and disrespectfully in the midst of a death bashing another local dive OP for something very similar? That company went out of business. It's a real shame and a loss for everyone in the community.

DM Dave

Has it been determined by more than hearsay that the boat left? News reports are generally almost completely incorrect. They are proven wrong enough that I am leery of depending on them. I will wait for official releases before I condemn the boat.

 

[divemaster dave]

I was monitoring VHF radio traffic that day CH16 and was a few miles south of the Yukon. Off Point Loma to be exact. Yes the dive boat left the Yukon to go to the Ruby E and had to return to the Yukon. It was transmitted that it took over an hour before they realized the diver was missing.

 

[ZenDiver.3D]

I was monitoring VHF radio traffic that day CH16 and was a few miles south of the Yukon. Off Point Loma to be exact. Yes the dive boat left the Yukon to go to the Ruby E and had to return to the Yukon. It was transmitted that it took over an hour before they realized the diver was missing.

Okay. Then thank you for giving out this information. That does change my opinion. There is no reason for a diver to be left. I own a dive boat. We are scrupulous about timing our divers in the water. Our captain can tell you where we are at all times. He can track bubbles like no one I've ever seen. We may only have 5 divers on the boat and we still check each to make sure all are safe and back aboard. We also set a time limit for the dive. Quite often, our currents and movement can pull divers in different directions. Our captain can tell you where each one is and makes pick ups according to first up. But we Always know where our divers or snorklers are.

Our boat does not allow solo diving, but for three people. Those three are owners of the boat. The boat will have to take responsibility for leaving without accounting for their diver. It may not have anything to do with whether the victim lived or died, but they should have accounted for him.

Now. We may never know why he was down there with no air. He hadn't inflated or attempted to surface, that I can tell. Who knows what happened. He will be responsible for diving solo- those of us who do, know the risks, and take responsibility for them. I hope we find out more soon.
Thanks for telling us this part.