Your thoughts on LDS experience thread.......

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I am really trying to find someone who could share an idea on this thread that would revolutionize our favorite activity. Scuba Diving.

You have to change the incentives that are built into the industry. There is a big incentive to sign up a newbie for all the gear they can afford as soon as possible. There is a big incentive to drop the price of classes, in the hope of selling overpriced gear. There is a big incentive to get people through the first 3 months of their scuba life. There isn't as big of an incentive to keep them diving.

The industry needs to quit babysitting divers at every step along the way. OW divers should be encouraged to go off and explore a little by themselves. Dive shops aren't selling tanks and BC's; they are selling access to a new adventure. Follow the fins of the guy in front of you just isn't an adventure.

Until there is just as much incentive to pimp the $300 reg as there is to pimp the $700 reg, a large group of people won't jump in to something that costs so much before they can even see what they are buying. There is plenty of low priced beginner gear out there, but new divers are steered away from it at every turn.

Dive shops aren't competing with each other. They're competing with 100 other things like skiing and mountain biking that active people can do with their time and money.

As long as new gear sales are used to subsidize virtually everything else in the industry, the industry will stay broken.

my 2 cents.....
 
You have to change the incentives that are built into the industry. There is a big incentive to sign up a newbie for all the gear they can afford as soon as possible. There is a big incentive to drop the price of classes, in the hope of selling overpriced gear. There is a big incentive to get people through the first 3 months of their scuba life. There isn't as big of an incentive to keep them diving.

The industry needs to quit babysitting divers at every step along the way. OW divers should be encouraged to go off and explore a little by themselves. Dive shops aren't selling tanks and BC's; they are selling access to a new adventure. Follow the fins of the guy in front of you just isn't an adventure.

Until there is just as much incentive to pimp the $300 reg as there is to pimp the $700 reg, a large group of people won't jump in to something that costs so much before they can even see what they are buying. There is plenty of low priced beginner gear out there, but new divers are steered away from it at every turn.

Dive shops aren't competing with each other. They're competing with 100 other things like skiing and mountain biking that active people can do with their time and money.

As long as new gear sales are used to subsidize virtually everything else in the industry, the industry will stay broken.

my 2 cents.....


I couldn't agree more.

The handwriting is on the wall. Divers (and people in general) are more educated than ever before. We have access to the endless resource of the internet. Our fathers may not have been able to get people's opinion on the Acme 3.2 regulator complete with multiple bells and whistles but WE can. We often know WHAT we want and how MUCH it should cost before we ever step foot into our LDS.

Just think of all the things we buy ONLINE today that we didn't buy online just 10 years ago. I have financed my past two autos online with a blank check in hand from e-loan.com before I ever stepped foot into a dealership. We buy 800 thread count sheets on Overstock.com when most of us didn't even know that 800 thread count sheet were available 20 years ago. Now we can buy quality linens for cheaper than crappy ones at Walmart.

Is this trend going to suddenly reverse? Will we stop getting most of our info online...stop using Billpay....stop booking ENTIRE vacations online...and stop shopping online? Heck no...what we are seeing is only the beginning.

We, as consumers, have changed. We have evolved. It's time the LDS did the same thing.
 
Hey, Mackster...glad to see you posting again. It looks like ShawnO got your attention with this thread. :wink:

I have a couple of questions for you. I think I know why the local shops are offering free air and low cost OW classes, but I'd like to know what you think. After all, I'm just a diver and you are in the trenches as a shop owner.

Inexpensive OW Classes
I figured that the inexpensive OW classes were simply the LDS's investment in building a long-term relationship with their customers. Get 'em certified, treat 'em right, offer good customer service, expertise, quality training options, and a decent product line at a reasonable cost and you have an income stream for as long as the customer is diving. I'd think they'd be diving for a long while if an LDS offers all 5 of those things.

I think the idea of squeezing them for every drop of blood they can give early is a mistake. Unfortunately, we seem to have plenty of shops around here that do that. They sell them hard and early, and they sell them equipment that is at a level of quality and cost that they don't need. They get disillusioned and they're done with the sport.

Free Air Offers
Free air seems to me like a good way to draw customers to the shop. Sure it costs money to run and maintain a compressor, but there isn't that much diving going on right now, so why not offer something that doesn't cost the shop much, but could result in increased sales? Especially, if the shop has been able to hedge against the slow part of the season by banking a little of the cash they raked in over the summer?

Tech Classes
Granted not too many divers move all the way to technical diving. Too bad, because it is a kick in the pants. I love it, but I know it's not for everyone. I think most divers will learn some skills in an introductory class like Adv. Nitrox & Deco, Fundies, Tec1, etc. regardless of the instructor. However, a great instructor will make sure you don't leave without some serious skills in place like bouyancy, and understanding of the physiology of diving, diving with doubles, gear configuration, survival skills, etc, etc.

As a diver progresses through the levels to certification for hypoxic trimix, deep wreck, cave, etc they may not be learning skills that are as obvious, but they better be learning and fine tuning their skills or they shouldn't be moving on. Once a diver gets to the point of diving to 250'+ they better be the total package or they are risking their own life and the lives of their dive team/buddy. They way to get there is to dive with someone who is focused on helping you improve and I think the best way to do that is to find a quality instructor who will help you learn to react instinctively, help you perfect...and I do mean perfect...your bouyancy, trim and gear configuration. I could write a lot more about this, but I don't have the time right now and ya'll probably don't want to hear it. :wink:
 
I had the opportunity to talk to the third graders at Fern Bluff Elementary today, using the Oceans for Youth Foundation DVD and my scuba gear, as part of their education about the oceans. I think nearly every kid raised their hand when asked who would like to scuba dive with sharks or dolphins. Their fascination in the equipment and growing knowledge about the aquatic environment fuels their interest.

Growth will come from the future generation of divers, name one kiddo that doesn't show interest in scuba diving with sharks, rays, fish swimming around a pretty reef when asked or shown scuba equipment. Open the door to the kiddos and quench their interest and excitement early and you will have a future generation of divers. This approach requires addressing the entry price point discussed throughout the thread and the continuing education issues. Look at the money thrown into all the electronics these kids have today because parents feel a need to keep them entertained and the kids ask for the gear. They would do the same thing for scuba equipment if they were certified and had access to regularly dive, as we do here in Central Texas.

How many shops truly make an effort to bring diving to the kiddos?
 
Hey John.

Inexpensive OW classes
Seems like a good idea. Get lots of people involved in the sport and a percentage of them will stick with you. So, they take the class with borrowed or rented gear. Maybe they go on a trip to the caribbean. Then they move on to something else, forgetting all about the instructor telling them that they will dive more if they have their own gear. I've The students that do stick with the sport and eventually buy their own gear are a smaller percentage and I think they would get certified even at the higher price. So far, the increased numbers of students have not translated into higher gear sales. I think we need to find ways to keep divers involved and encourage them to own their own gear. Since I'm not one to force high dollar gear on everyone that enters my shop, I don't get as many sales. I do sleep well though.

Free Air
Does not cost that much to run the compressor??? Remind me to show you my electric bill sometime!
Actually, it sounds like a good way to keep people diving. Although I'm sure quite a few divers are sitting at home and staying away from the cold water despite the offer. If dry suits were more affordable, I think many more people would dive year round. 1k - 2k for a dry suit is a serious chunk of change for the average diver. I think we need something more than free air to keep them involved.

If you follow Hemlon's theory of the internet revolution, the LDS will only be around to offer training and service. So discount the training and give away the service??? That is like a dance hall offering no cover charge and free beer. We'd all love to see it happen, but the place won't last long like that.

Tech Classes
I agree that tech classes are a great way to improve your skill sets. Buoyancy control and other aspects of diving can be taught outside the tech relm, but there does not seem to be an area of focus for the recreational diver. Task loading is another great aspect of tech diving. I admit that I have learned quite a bit from the tech classes that I have taken and I recommend them to anyone who is interested. Still, they are some of the most cost prohibitive classes I've seen offered. I know these instructors have invested alot of time and effort to get to that level, but I think the pricing is what is keeping many otherwise interested divers out of the tech market.

To address some of your and Shawn's concerns, I am working on a couple of new offerings that will make learning to dive more affordable for folks and hopefully keep current divers diving more. It combines some ideas that I have seen in shops in other areas. Hopefully it will be successfull here. I'll let you know as soon as I get the details worked out.
 
One thought about air fills: You can't get air fills just anywhere yet look at the value we place on filling our tanks. I am not saying the LDS should hit the diver hard for an airfill, but this is one service that is taken for granted all too often. Recall the previous thread about air fills and tank maintenance procedures. Besides, you can't purchase airfills over the internet and few people have their own airfill station.

Internet purchases: Experienced divers buy gear over the internet, uneducated divers buy gear over the internet but I don't believe that all divers are flocking to the web to buy their gear. I don't believe the internet will be the death of LDS as was proven when the dominant thought was that Brick & Morters are going the way of the dinosaur as a result of the internet. LDS need to step up the quality of service, attention to detail, and post OW training incentives for the customer to return. They should also not fear competing with the internet and do as some shops by matching or beating the online price and offering exceptional service. Consumers shop where they get the best value, price being only one part of this equation.

Just my 2 cents. I would contribute more but this is all I have left since being in the dive business.....:shakehead:
 
Everyone participating on this thread this week has really helped me to focus once again on how much FUN Scuba Diving is.

The reason I dive is the adventure and exploration of our Aquatic world around us fresh or salt. I enjoy the divers I meet every day.

My new theme is "Revolutionize Scuba Diving" for the 21st century.

The old scuba structure from the past has served us well. Kept us safe and limited the risk.

Now it is time for change. Back to the FUN.

I am truly excited about what 2009 has in store for us.

Your thoughts and opinions matter and thanks to Scubaboard for the chance to share these with one another.


Shawn O'Shea
 
Shawn,

This thread is refreshing. It offers many-a-perspective and hits a lot of different topics at a variety of angles.

With that being said, I feel there's a bit of a paradoxal catch-22 with Shawn calling for less expensive classes so that being an instructor can be an affordable pursuit, while on the other side of the coin, Mack comments that if classes were more expensive then the instructors could be paid more. Hmmmmmm?

Shawn, are you willing to pay more for your education upfront for the risk/potential reward of making more money per student down the road? And if you are NOT willing to pay more . . . i.e. if your PRO education could be discounted, in turn would you be willing to offer your PRO services at a discounted rate, thus making less money per student as an instructor?

In addition, be sure to include a cost-dependent algorithm into your business plan forecasting because when you charge more for classes, the financially-strapped segment of your clientele market will shy away due to the higher price. So, do you think you will actually make more money in the long-run by charging more per student? If you charge each student less, you will probably get more clients, definitely work more/longer hours, but will you acquire enough business to off-set the lower price per student? That's the 64 million dollar question? Or in the scuba industry, unfortunately it's more like the 640 dollar question. :shocked2:

Shawn, something's gotta give if you're wanting lower prices for your career-building education classes, but then high-dollar compensation for instructing some of the very education classes that you just took to become PRO.


No Love for LDS owners???
Just because Mack and I both decided to become dive shop owners over the past few recent years, doesn't mean we're two horses running with blinders. We have been consumers in our scuba industry for many more years.

We both did similar research, both understood the pros and cons of the current industry set-up (but not as much as we know now), and both of us loved scuba as well as the opportunity to be a part of our sport which encouraged us to giant stride in with a fervor. Shawn, I'm excited to know that you're weighing your options concerning your scuba future with such deep-thought. Hopefully, all those who post before me and after me will be constructive to your hopes.

So that you know where I'm coming from?
I grew up without a lot luxuries, including money. After getting my degree from UT-Austin, I did my share of working for "the man," trying to be sponge and learn valuable knowledge even though some jobs were downright crappy. But after that 3-year experience, I became self-employed, which was scary knowing that if I didn't produce results, that food would not magically appear on my table, the car note and mortgage-man would come a knocking and that I was without the safety net of financial-well parents or any sort of deep savings. I had to rely on my ability to sell my business model, my knowledge, and quite frankly, myself. For approx 20 years now, I've been successfully self-employed, and I've never had to rely on anyone for assistance . . . . . . until I opened Royal Scuba this past year and realized that there were some things that I didn't have the answers for. Being a Type-A perfectionist, that's a big slice of humble pie reality that I had to work out. But that's also a whole other thread for some other day.

I became a diver many years ago, I did about 6 weeks of research just to decide who was going to be my open water instructor, what initial gear was within my budget, and what type of diving I was enthusiastic about trying (lake, cenotes, Caribbean warm, Pacific cold, etc.)

Two years later, when I decided to purchase my first "bad-ass" set of gear, I did about 4 months of research to decide what kind, what brand, what store were candidates for my business, what price was worth my hard-earned money, and at what point, with my sales experience as a guide, would I feel justified in walking away from bulls**t spewed from a scuba salesperson. (I just wanted to be treated right and treated fair, and get a good price. You know, what everybody wants in life.)
:D

Fast forward to current events, I did nearly 3 years of research on a scuba shop business plan, etc, etc, etc, while incubating All-American Royal Scuba. I thought I had all my bases covered. And then a couple of months before I was about to open the shop in mid-2007, my business partner's heart condition forced him to back out, which tore me up inside and sent me back to the drawing board. Before I opened my LDS, RoyalScuba.com, on the last weekend of March 2008, I felt like I had already won the war because I had successfully maneuvered my way through "Shawn's current scuba industry," and then some.

There are some comments on this thread that shed some light on things that definitely could be looked at within our well-loved industry. I'm refreshed by all of you who have shared viewpoints on this thread (many of whom I know as customers and/or friends) and I'm always intrigued and thankful by vast insightful knowledge that comes from the Texas Swamp Divers forum, most of all I applaud Shawn for having the courage to speak out and get this started. :D

In closing, when I was doing research a few years ago, I discovered that the price of a c-card (OW cert) has gone down and then up and back down again over the past 15 years or so in the greater Austin area . In addition, the typical average price for a c-card in the Houston area and Dallas area tends be nearly $150 more than the average c-card price in Austin. I won't bore you with the many other stats I gathered nationally, but here's the catch, regardless of Austin prices fluctuating, or the Dallas/ Houston price being more expensive, instructor wages per student are eerily uniform regardless of where the class is offered. :confused: Meaning, regardless of whether a scuba shop is charging $550 in California, $499 in Georgia, or $375 in the Dallas area, or $200 in Austin, all dive shops tend to pay their instructors a similar wage nationwide. My research was confirmed by a PADI regional course director when PADI was courting me last year, as well as numerous NAUI course directors that I initially met via a conference call last April, but that is an entirely different thread.

If any of you believe my little LDS has high prices, please sound off.

Nicco Martinez :lotsalove:
 
Am I seeing a Fox news special interest story in the making???

Something's brewing, I just can't put my finger on it :)

I don't understand a lot about economics, but some things about the scuba industry DO jump out at me, though.

We spend LOTS of money on our scuba hobby, but instructors don't seem to be able to make a living at what they do? Kind of an inequity here.

Some shop keepers get so irate when "internet sales" are mentioned that they embarrass customers and throw students out of class. Would we put up with this from our local grocery store? Wal-mart? Heck no. Yet the thought of "internet sales" is so threatening to the brick and mortar shops that they violate the very core of customer service. I feel so bad for our people on the board who have been treated like this.

I'm done. Can't think of more examples at the moment. I need to go log my Aquarena dive today :)
 
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