Insurance and tort reform. Just ask your congressmen and senators to change that for us. Oh, wait, they are all laywers funded by the insurance lobby. Another great idea shot to s**t.
Your thoughts on LDS experience thread.......
- Thread starter scubashawn123
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Insurance and tort reform. Just ask your congressmen and senators to change that for us. Oh, wait, they are all laywers funded by the insurance lobby. Another great idea shot to s**t.
OP
scubashawn123
Contributor
Mack,
Hi Mack,
Great to hear your opinion.
Please seperate from being a wonderful small business owner of a dive shop. Go back to just being a diver and going PRO. I am working towards my PADI OW instructor certification. I am looking at about a $4500 to get their before I even have an opportunity to teach.
How do I recoup these costs in a business model in reference to your low compensation note above?
If it makes no business sense to go PRO, then so be it, but what could the industry do to reinvent itself for growth in all directions (manufacturer, certifying agencies etc......)
Shawn O'Shea
The biggest cost to shops and instructors, besides their time is the insurance (see my rant above). Instructors need to certify at least 10 open water students just to pay their insurance. throw in another 4 students to cover annual dues. 14 open water students is two large classes. Assuming a weekend schedule, the is 4 weekends out of the instructors summer, just to pay dues and insurance. If the insurance companies woudl lower premiums, associated activity costs would go down as well.
Insurance also effects the manufacturers as they have to cover their liability in this lawsuit happy society. Granted, I think that BCDs are way over priced when you consider what you are buying. I also think that some of the accessories are way over priced. If I had access to a fabrication shop that was willing to go along, I could market some VERY affordably priced products for the dive industry.
If you want to lower the cost to be a diver, you need a well funded retail organization such as kevin referred to. Additionally, it would help if the agencies got a little less greedy on their offerings as well. Does it really cost $30.00 to enter a persons name in the database and print a little plastic card? I also think the educational materials are priced high (Especially your chosen agency).
I know you want to hear about lowering the cost, but in reality, I think that $300.00 is a fair price to pay for learning to scuba dive. That is comperable to what I see being charged in the Houston and Dallas markets. Florida and other states charge $500.00 plus. To give a comparrision, 300.00 will get you about 3 days of ski lessons or 5 hours of golf lessons. In the professional world, it will get you a one day seminar with 8 hours of con-ed credit. If I could get $300.00 per student for OW classes, I could double what I currently pay the instructors, which would encourage them to teach more.
Insurance also effects the manufacturers as they have to cover their liability in this lawsuit happy society. Granted, I think that BCDs are way over priced when you consider what you are buying. I also think that some of the accessories are way over priced. If I had access to a fabrication shop that was willing to go along, I could market some VERY affordably priced products for the dive industry.
If you want to lower the cost to be a diver, you need a well funded retail organization such as kevin referred to. Additionally, it would help if the agencies got a little less greedy on their offerings as well. Does it really cost $30.00 to enter a persons name in the database and print a little plastic card? I also think the educational materials are priced high (Especially your chosen agency).
I know you want to hear about lowering the cost, but in reality, I think that $300.00 is a fair price to pay for learning to scuba dive. That is comperable to what I see being charged in the Houston and Dallas markets. Florida and other states charge $500.00 plus. To give a comparrision, 300.00 will get you about 3 days of ski lessons or 5 hours of golf lessons. In the professional world, it will get you a one day seminar with 8 hours of con-ed credit. If I could get $300.00 per student for OW classes, I could double what I currently pay the instructors, which would encourage them to teach more.
Hemlon
Contributor
I really think that buying gear online is the trend. I think LDS will change dramatically within the next few years to focus less on gear and more on education/service. And like PvilleStang, I think there are too many LDS competing for too few dollars.
Online retailers will continue to improve in their return policies so that people won't need to touch/feel/try on gear prior to purchase.
When you think about it, this is fiscal evolution. The weak WILL be eliminated and the strong will continue to grow and thrive. In this vein, buying gear from your LDS stands in the way of the
fiscal evolutionary process.
Hmmm....
Online retailers will continue to improve in their return policies so that people won't need to touch/feel/try on gear prior to purchase.
When you think about it, this is fiscal evolution. The weak WILL be eliminated and the strong will continue to grow and thrive. In this vein, buying gear from your LDS stands in the way of the
fiscal evolutionary process.
Hmmm....
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You don't. Teach SCUBA because you like it, not for the money.
SCUBA Instructor has a relatively low entry barrier and a relatively pleasant work environment and a small fixed set of required skills. It will never pay any significant amount of money because anybody with a little time and a little extra cash can be a SCUBA instructor.
This isn't a bad thing. The best instructors I've ever met all had other jobs that paid the bills and taught SCUBA because it made them happy.
Terry
PvilleStang
Contributor
Mack,
I don't dispute that the entry level class should be so high, but when you start looking at the price of getting a Nitrox Cert, Rescue Diver, etc. (essentially building on a previous skill set, rather than learning a completely new one) the prices start to seem outrageous. Classes like Trimix, where you're not really learning any new skills, rather expanding on skills learned in Adv. Nitrox and Deco shouldn't be nearly as high as they are, either, considering the amount of work put into it versus the work put into Adv. Nitrox and Deco.
And Terry, as for your statement about doing it for the love of teaching, I agree, it's not something you do for a full time job. BUT, at the same time, I've known instructors that are scared away from teaching for longer periods of time due to the costs of membership, insurance, and materials vs. the amount they make. If it were me, I'd want to make back my costs fairly quickly, rather than sitting in the red for a better part of the year, but that's just my way of looking at it.
I don't dispute that the entry level class should be so high, but when you start looking at the price of getting a Nitrox Cert, Rescue Diver, etc. (essentially building on a previous skill set, rather than learning a completely new one) the prices start to seem outrageous. Classes like Trimix, where you're not really learning any new skills, rather expanding on skills learned in Adv. Nitrox and Deco shouldn't be nearly as high as they are, either, considering the amount of work put into it versus the work put into Adv. Nitrox and Deco.
And Terry, as for your statement about doing it for the love of teaching, I agree, it's not something you do for a full time job. BUT, at the same time, I've known instructors that are scared away from teaching for longer periods of time due to the costs of membership, insurance, and materials vs. the amount they make. If it were me, I'd want to make back my costs fairly quickly, rather than sitting in the red for a better part of the year, but that's just my way of looking at it.
OP
scubashawn123
Contributor
Mack,
Well written.
So lets take one item off the plate. New OW certification costs with equipment around $1000. that is practical. $550 to learn to dive 1st step in diving sport. No problem.
But to continue your advanced diving, with costs continuing to increase to get there is harder to participate in, until this economy turns around. And does not reinvent the sport. The customer (diving enthusiast) should see a sliding scale that makes it more practical to go further in their diving adventures over time not the other way around.
Therfore, keep doing what the industry is doing, and has done, keeping getting the same results. Flat business model. Non-growth industry.
I am really trying to find someone who could share an idea on this thread that would revolutionize our favorite activity. Scuba Diving.
I think we have the major problems and the reasons why, things are how they are, and the fact that a Scuba Diving business is not a money maker, or growth model.
That I am clear and feel your, and other LDS owners pain. I want you around.
But at some point we need to revolutionize Scuba Diving so that all parties can make real profits of 30% fair and ethical and grow millions of more certified divers a year into the sport.
I am all ears. Bring it on.
Shawn O'Shea
I agree with you on the cost of technical classes. Granted, you do learn some new skills with Adv. Nitrox & Deco, predominately task loading and intro to technical skills. However, there are no new skills learned with trimix. I think the cost of those classes is so high because of the ladder steps that instructors have to go through in order to teach them. Before I can teach a technical class, I have to take the class as a student and then take it again as an instructor. We already offer a package for Advanced OW + Nitrox. I'll be putting together some additional packages to save on other classes. If I were to get my technical instructor certs, I would try to make it more affordable for folks. However, it is currently cost prohibitive for me to do that. For example, before I can get certified to teach Adv. Nitrox and Dec, I have to take those classes (already done), then I have to take the Trimix class (student level), then I can take Adv. Nitrox and Deco (again) in order to teach it. Seems a bit excessive to me, but those are the rules.
It would be nice to focus on education and service. However, many shops currently using training as a loss leader to get gear sales. And how many shops in Austin are currently giving away air fills? Makes it hard to pay the rent that way.
I'm sure you will see fewer LDS' over the next few years. Several have already closed their doors. I'm not so sure that online buying is necessarily a growing trend. As several folks have stated, they appreciate the personal attention, advice and atmosphere that a good LDS provides. For me personally, I want to try gear before I buy it. I hate the hassle of returning and exchanging things.
OP
scubashawn123
Contributor
Terry,
To be clear, my motives are also because I like to teach. I have waited a long time to make this investment, since I have been diving since 1974. But due to the pyramid scheme (structure) costs associated with certifying agencies I have not been able to teach the sport I love. Once you go PRO, keep your wallet out, because 2 times a year you will pay though the nose to stay active.
Sad, but true...........
I do not think the structure of the industry is satisfactory and I am looking to find solutions to make it work. It is broken if you consider it as a business, not as a sport you love. It is sad that the bank considers Dive shops a bad investment due to being flat and not growing. Not growing due its its inability to solve the current industry structure. Not having the ability to reinvent the sport to the public, thus being in a position to allow millions of people the opportunity to enjoy the aquatic world we live in that currently find the costs offensive.
I hope that my narrowly focused look to reinvent the sport, restructure the industry is not confused with the nuts and bolts of teaching diving. Or the love of the sport.
I know that divers are some of the smartest hard working people in the world with the best sense of humor.
We should be able to revolutionize this sport on this thread. Just my wishful thinking.
Thanks for your opinion Terry.
I do love America and the great state of Texas and the Texas Swamp Divers.
Shawn O'Shea
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