x650

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DolphinDiver

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I'm interested in the x650.

Tribal wisdom I've read here says wait until the bugs are worked out.

Anyone have experience with this reg?
 
The first batch they produced had some problems. They ended up getting delayed for a while. I think they have fixed any problems by now.

I personally wouldn't buy one because I think they look weird and you can't take them apart underwater.
 
The Darth Vader look is wierd, but I'm not too worried about that. What I'm really after is the great SP breath but I also really want something with the least bubble interference. Perhaps the G250HP is best for that?
 
ElectricZombie once bubbled...
The first batch they produced had some problems. They ended up getting delayed for a while. I think they have fixed any problems by now.

I personally wouldn't buy one because I think they look weird and you can't take them apart underwater.

Sure you can. Problem is you can't get it back together under water. :)

Personally I service my gear at home :wink:

R..
 
The advantages of the X650 have a lot to do with the Darth Vader wierd case design and are not immediately obvious unless you understand the concept of case geometry fault.

The X650 appears to use the same basic air barrel and poppet assemblies as Scubapro's more conventional balanced reg designs and on the surface would not offer any real improvement - except for the case geometry and that can make a great deal of difference in terms of how much of that really low cracking effort you can really use in the water.

For example, even a very old Balanced Adjustable second stage can be updated using the same poppet a G250, G500 or S600. Equipped with this poppet, all four regs can be adjusted to give a very low cracking effort under 1.0 inch in the in the .7 range out of the water. However, the regulators adjusted to that level of effort are not fully usable in the water without some diver adjustment to increase cracking effort as the cracking effort is not the limiting factor in the system.

In a conventional case design, the position of the regulator is critical. When the diver is vertical in the water, the top of the exhaust valve is about .2 inches lower than the center of the diaphragm and consequently the exhaust valve is securely seated by water pressure. When the diver rotates in the water to a normal swimming position with the reg angled down about 45 degrees, the top of the exhaust valve is now about .8 inches above the center of the diaphragm and this pressure differential bleeds air out the exhaust valve. And if the diver rotates further to a face down position, the difference in depth increases this pressure difference to about 1.25 inches.

What this means is that in a normal swimming position, a conventional second stage that is adjusted to a cracking effort of .7 to 1.2 on the surface will work ok when the diver is vertical but will freeflow slightly in a normal swimming position or when face down as the air leaking out the elevated exhaust valve will create enough suction to open the poppet and continue to supply air to feed the leak out the exhaust valve. So in the real world the diver ends up having to detune the reg by turning in the adjustment knob to increase the spring pressure and the cracking effort to the 1.2 to 1.3 range anyway to stop the slight freeflow of air out the exhaust valve.

With my own regs of this design, I adjust them on the bench for minimum cracking effort just because.... but I also recognize that on most dives I will end up with the adjustment knob turned in 2-3 turns if I want to set the reg up so that I do not have to mess with it during the dive.

So in short with a conventional case design and a high perfromance poppet you have a lot of potential low cracking effort performance that you cannot use in the water without a lot of adjustment every time you change position in the water. To make the second stage diveable in an adjustment free manner throughout the dive (or in the case of a non adjustable second stage where it cannot be adjusted) you are limited to a minimum cracking effort of around 1.2 to 1.3 inches if you are going to avoid a freeflow in the worst case face down position. A lot of people talk about how low their reg's cracking effort is on the bench, but it is kind of irrellevent if it cannot be used in the water without position related freeflow issues.

With a more unconventional case design like the D400, the exhaust valve is located in the center of the diaphragm and the worst case pressure differential is only .6. And as an extra benefit, this worst case positon occurs when you are rotated 135 degrees from the vertical and rarely occurs in the water. So a D400 adjusted to provide a cracking effort of .6 could be used throughout the dive with no adjustment required and with about half the real world cracking effort of a G250, G500 or S600. It's a very real advantage that never really shows to it's full subjective effect on a work of breathing chart nor was it an advantage SP every really marketed but one that is obvious is you dive a G250 or S600 and a D400 side by side. The D400 just "feels" better.

My first thought when I first saw a picture of the X650 was "oh goody, an angled diaphragm with a co-axial exhaust valve just like the D400". My second thought after looking closer was "oh darn, it has a separate exhaust valve, gimme back my D400."

I am now firmly middle of the road about it until I get to dive with one. I have still not seen one in the flesh but it does appears to have its diaphragm angled 30-45 degrees and the case is relatively flat in terms of diaphragm to exhaust valve distance. So while it does not appear to offer the same extreme degree of CGF advantage as the D400 in terms of case/diaphragm/exhaust valve design, it should still allow a lower usable cracking effort of under 1.0 inch without being subject to freeflow in the face down position.

With the same poppet assembly and potentially low cracking effort as the G250, S600, etc combined with a case design that appears to reduce CGF issues, it should be a very good performer in the water. The X650 like the D400 also appears to have a large exhaust valve and should have lower exhalation resistance than SP's other conventional cased second stages. It also has a real exhaust T, unlike the D400, so it should have less bubble interference than a D400.
 
Excellent description, DA Aquamaster!

I have set nonadjustable regs to approx. 1.25" for years due to the very same issues. Many divers want to judge a reg by its initial cracking pressure with no real understanding of regulator design and function. It makes me want to chuckle when I see someone "testing" a reg by breathing from it in a dive shop. It is akin to kicking the tires of a used car that you are pondering...

Greg Barlow
 
Very nice write-up. Thanks. I have never heard that explanation for the D400 design before - so ya, I wonder why SP never marketed it that way.

The price of the x650 isn't that much higher than the 600 so I think I'm sold.
 
I really don't know what is up with Scubapro and the D400. 10 years ago they were real big on work of breathing charts and pushed the other regs like the G250 that had lower scores even if they had higher cracking efforts and a more artificial feel.

They also pushed the adjustable feature like it was a good thing instead of presenting it as a necesasry evil to get more performance out of a good poppet design with an outdated case design. The D400 did not have a diver adjustable cracking effort (other than the dive/predive switch) because it did not need it. But I suspect that more knobs and buttons just help sell more regs to the gadget lovers out there.

Lately I have had trouble getting the newer production D400's to perform. The plastic orifice insert in my opinion is just not as effective as the older one piece all brass orifice assembly and cannot be tuned for as low a cracking effort. The new poppets also have a ridge on them that I suspect is designed to center the poppet but seems to just cause problems getting a seal at low spring pressures. The result is you have to crank down the spring adjusting pad and end up with higher cracking efforts.

SP had to detune the D400's sent from the factory to get CE approval in the late 90's. So I suspect the negative effects that have resulted from the design changes that have occurred since have not been viewed as a problem. This has never made sense to me. Why detune a reg that was well liked and a great performer just to get CE approval? Apparently the CE on the side means more than performance to the marketing folks. Anyway the end result is that the D400 has been discontinued. Hopefully the X650 can fill its shoes.
 
I got to look at an X650 over the weekend inside and out and it looks pretty impressive. It uses the same basic balanced poppet design as all the other current balanced SP second stages but the poppet is a little shorter than the standard S-wing poppet.

The venturi effect is very D400 like in that the aspirator is in line with the mouthpiece and can be rotated to direct the air rather than relying on a flow vane, so the air flow should be much smoother and more natural.

I did not get to dive it but it is reported to be very stable in the water with position changes (like the D400) and is stable in the water with inhalation efforts as low as .8 to 1.0.

Given that it sells for the same price as the S600 and is now available and being shipped, I can't see a good reason to buy an S600. And after seeing the X650, I am also less miffed that they discontinued the D400.
 
I know this is a fairly old thread , but the right kind of terms are being used here for my question.

I bought the MK25/S650 in Nov. 03 on my first dive (and the reason I bought it) it had a very low cracking preasure and was about the easiest smoothest breathing reg I had ever seen. on the second dive the cracking preasure started to increase and increase until unless you can easily suck a golf ball through 10' Garden Hose you would have thought that the 2nd stage had failed completely (no problem with the Octo)

I took it back to the shop who informed me that they would have to send it off to their head office to have it "adjusted" a new unit came back so I was quite happy with the service.

Since then the cracking preasure on the new unit has increased since the first few dives but has got no where near the golf ball in the hose situation.

I have talked to the guy whose one I tried before I bought mine and another friend who bought one at the same time and found that they had both experienced near indentical symptoms.

We all agreed (on a liveaboard in Burma last week, which was great) that we no longer trust this reg.

Any ideas?

By the way any body want to buy an almost new MK25/S650 + Octo , would part exchg for APEKS ;-)

Cheers
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/perdix-ai/

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