Worst-case scenario for unserviced R109

[Luis H]

Leaks and/or poor performance.

Many 109s have spent a long time in storage before they show up in the used reg market. I would expect the orifice o-ring to be pretty old although I have seen some that looked more like plastic than rubber and still sealed. More likely the LP seat is engraved and hard resulting in poor performance at best and likely a slight leak. Cranking down on the adjuster may stop it but will further reduce performance. Older exhaust valves were not of the same material as modern versions and should be expected to leak water in resulting in wet (maybe real wet) breathing.

If you put it on a tank and it breaths well with no leaks, it may well be OK. But it really is a very simple reg to service and a good place to start DIY. The 109 poppet has gone through a number of upgrades. If yours has a fixed seat, either riveted or bonded directly to the poppet, it really should be upgrades and the rest of the reg serviced (2 new o-rings and a critical look at the exhaust valve). If it is one of the newer poppets that takes the replaceable hockey puck style LP seat, then it may well be usable with just cleaning and lube (since you are there anyway).

Another possibility is that it has already been upgraded to a Balanced Adjustable. You will need to remove the clip and the adjustment knob and then dump out either a spring pad and a heavy spring or a balance chamber and a light spring to tell. You will need to do this anyway to know what kind of service kit to look for. If it is upgraded already, then peek down the barrel at the balanced poppet stem. If it is metal (shiny stainless steel) , it is one of the older versions and probably needs to be replaced. If it is white plastic then it is a newer version and again may be OK for a while.

Edit: New exhaust-Ts may be hard to come by so if you have one that is marginal, I'd start looking for a replacement right away. The dry-rot on the exhaust-T is an indication of long storage in unfavorable conditions. I can't see where a little rubber cement on the cracks can hurt and it should slow the deodorization process that will eventually retire that exhaust-T. Plus, if it is bad, you will need to take a good look at the diaphragm and rubber cover. The diaphragm is easy to find but the rubber cover is another part discontinued by Scubapro and real hard to come by so treat it gently.

I have found that it is easy to tell an upgraded balanced adjustable from a non-balanced by taking the hose off and looking down through the volcano orifice. With a flash light you can easily see the small hole in the balanced adjustable seat that feeds air into the balancing chamber (in the other side).


Not long ago I was able to buy several diaphragm covers from Scubapro. I think they just made a new batch of replacement covers. They look very nice. I also got Couv some covers at the time.

Scubapro also has a replacement exhaust T that is supposed to fit, but it feels very hard. I have not tried to install it on any 109 since I have some good originals and these ones seem almost like plastic. It may work after heating it in boiling water. Couv also got some of those, maybe he had good experience with them.

 

[redacted]

I have found that it is easy to tell an upgraded balanced adjustable from a non-balanced by taking the hose off and looking down through the volcano orifice. With a flash light you can easily see the small hole in the balanced adjustable seat that feeds air into the balancing chamber (in the other side).


Not long ago I was able to buy several diaphragm covers from Scubapro. I think they just made a new batch of replacement covers. They look very nice. I also got Couv some covers at the time.

Scubapro also has a replacement exhaust T that is supposed to fit, but it feels very hard. I have not tried to install it on any 109 since I have some good originals and these ones seem almost like plastic. It may work after heating it in boiling water. Couv also got some of those, maybe he had good experience with them.

Well, it took these old eyes the help of a flashlight & magnifying glass, but a peek through the orifice sure will work. But you still have to open the other end to determine if the poppet is a modern version or not. At least you will know what type kit to start looking for.

I tried to get some covers almost a year ago and the order was rejected as no longer available. I've got one spare but will have to try again.

The new exhaust-Ts work OK but they are a job getting on and do sit a little differently on my chin. I've also got a few old ones in good condition stashed away.

It sure would be a shame to have to leave such great regulators idle over such simple parts.

 

[h90]

Worse case?
It free flows, you loose all your air and panic. you rush for the surface holding your breath and have an embolisim. Your buddy follows you and suffers the same fate. Divers on the same boat jump in to save you both but are attacked by a group of sharks attracted by the blood leaching from your lungs. A shark bites thru a tank and the valve snaps off sending the tank thru the hull of the boat causing it to sink killing everyone on board. One of which was the only man who could stop a world wide out break of SARS.

But thats pretty unlikely.

sending the tank thru the hull of an American Navy boat. They think it was an North Korean Submarine, start to bomb NK, they send a rocket and 3 Worldwar starts.

 

[Luis H]

Well, it took these old eyes the help of a flashlight & magnifying glass, but a peek through the orifice sure will work. But you still have to open the other end to determine if the poppet is a modern version or not. At least you will know what type kit to start looking for.

I tried to get some covers almost a year ago and the order was rejected as no longer available. I've got one spare but will have to try again.

The new exhaust-Ts work OK but they are a job getting on and do sit a little differently on my chin. I've also got a few old ones in good condition stashed away.

It sure would be a shame to have to leave such great regulators idle over such simple parts.

Let me know if you have trouble getting the diaphragm covers.

If it ever came to the point that no diaphragm covers were available from Scubapro anymore, it is possible to have them reproduced. This is probably one of the few or perhaps the only single hose second stage that could justify such an aftermarket expense.

It is not only a great regulator, but there may be enough of a following to spend the money on a reproduction part like this.

In the vintage equipment community we now have several individuals having reproduction hoses, mouthpiece valves, exhaust duckbill valves, diaphragm, and many other parts. Most of the rubber parts are now available in modern rubber materials including silicone.

One advantage for the double hose is that some of the rubber parts work on several model regulators, but the concentration is mostly on just two models…the Royal Aqua Master and the Aqua Master.

The internet has given the vintage equipment divers the buying power of volume. The Scubapro 109 falls in the same category.

Oh BTW, there is a vintage single hose section within the VintageDoubleHose.com web site.

 

[captain]

I have a 109 / MK V from the mid eighties that still has the original second stage seat and it works great. It is my newest regulator.

 

[Couv]

Hey Guys,

Yes, the diaphragm covers fit very well...the exhaust Tee...well, it looked very stiff and the hole that attaches to the second stage looks a little small. But to be honest, I did not try to install it.....put it aside for a day when I am in the mood for a fight.

One of you US (Usual Suspects, per Luis) advised me put it in really hot water and indeed that worked for the last tee I installed, but I have not tried it on the Terminator model yet. At any rate, I'm glad to hear Awap has one installed; now I know it is possible.

Luis, that is a good tip on determining if a 109 has been upgraded. If one sees a hole, I guess you can avoid buying a spring, lever and balance chamber.

couv

 

[halocline]

I put a new one on as well, it was not as tough as I thought. It was one of the batch that we got with AWAP, so I assume yours is the same. Boiling water does the trick.

 

[ericpitar]

According to Luis H: I have found that it is easy to tell an upgraded balanced adjustable from a non-balanced by taking the hose off and looking down through the volcano orifice. With a flash light you can easily see the small hole in the balanced adjustable seat that feeds air into the balancing chamber (in the other side).

Question: I am not a scubapro tech but is it relatively safe to take this hose off to peek inside to check if it's been upgraded? Or would springs, o-rings, etc, fall out as soon as I unscrew the hose the wrong way? I'm eager to also open the casing to look before I take it to the tech next weekend. This way, I can photograph the internals and maybe show you guys to get feedback on what I can expect to hear from the tech as far as what probably needs "fixed".

What do you guys think?

e

 

[redacted]

According to Luis H: I have found that it is easy to tell an upgraded balanced adjustable from a non-balanced by taking the hose off and looking down through the volcano orifice. With a flash light you can easily see the small hole in the balanced adjustable seat that feeds air into the balancing chamber (in the other side).

Question: I am not a scubapro tech but is it relatively safe to take this hose off to peek inside to check if it's been upgraded? Or would springs, o-rings, etc, fall out as soon as I unscrew the hose the wrong way? I'm eager to also open the casing to look before I take it to the tech next weekend. This way, I can photograph the internals and maybe show you guys to get feedback on what I can expect to hear from the tech as far as what probably needs "fixed".

What do you guys think?

e

It is safe to remove it from the metal regs but most of the plastic regs require a little extra caution. The metal reg case assembly is all one piece so there is not much you can do wrong. If the hose end is a regular hex nut, then the appropriate box end wrench will do the trick. If it is the spline hose end fitting that scubapro uses to keep you out of "their" regulator, then you will need to use pliers with something soft to protect the splined fitting. With the plastic models, there is usually also a jam nut that must be held rather than the case when you remove the hose. This jam nut holds the "innards" inside the case.

Retighten finger tight and then just a bit more to snug it up so it can not be loosened by hand.

 

[Couv]

Eric,

If you are going to take it to the tech before you dive with it, then take that baby apart. Unless you poke a hole in the diaphragm, you will not do any damage. In fact, after you take it apart if you do not want to put it back together the tech should not have a problem with getting it in pieces.

Give it a good warm bath in soapy water to loosen any deposits before beginning.

Take off the hose and have a peek down toward the orifice ala Luis. You will see the back end of the orifice has a slot for a thin screw driver. While holding down the purge button, back off the orifice. Next, with the purge button facing you, look at the band clamp that holds the case together. There will be two screws, one on each side holding the clamp in place. They are usually made of brass so use the right size screwdriver to remove them. After you remove the band clamps, the outer cover, rubber diaphragm cover and diaphragm will come off. Now, turn the regulator so that you are looking at the adjustment knob. Turn the knob all the way out, then back in just enough to take the tension off the retainer clip. Remove the retainer clip and then screw the adjuster all the way out. The gizzard and liver will now fall out. To remove the heart, look back at the case where you will see a lever. Gently spread the legs of the lever and remove it. Turn the regulator so that the poppet will fall out of the adjuster hole. Now, you can finish removing the orifice by pushing a plastic stick (steal a stick from your kid's toy CONNECTS) down the barrel from the adjuster hole.

Easier done than said….go for it…..take pictures of all the pieces and add them to the thread (the pictures, not the pieces) If you want to put it back together, that will be another post.

couv